11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Oh wow, you have completely run out of reasonable thing to say.

You really have nothing interesting to say, no evidence to back up any of your claims. Now it's on to sentiments.

 

But to be clear, no it was not a stealth edit, look again, all words are exactly what you posted.

I removed your repeated waffle about why evidence wasn't provided because "not about science". I have left a blank line to clearly signal words were removed in the quote. No reasonable reader is going to be confused about the quote.

 

Ok, if you want to focus on this bit. Happy to oblige

Where, in my last few posts from your "market is always right" post, have I objected to you not wanting an EV?

A very simple question based on your statement of accusation. I'm sure you can find and screenshot the exact sentence if your statements are not downright lies.

 

I see you have the attention of the Clique, so I'm sorry to have to point out that I NEVER SAID YOU OBJECTED TO ME NOT WANTING AN EV.😄

Oof! And with the leader of the Clique cheering you on, too. 😄

Here's the relevant portion of my post.

On 01/12/2024 at 09:55, EnterName said:

You want an electric car, fine. Don't object to me not wanting one.

That is a request that you not object to me wanting one.

I didn't claim that you had, that's all in your head, pal.

I even had ChatGPT parse the sentence to see if it is an accusation of some sort.

Computer says "No!". <cough>

 

The problem is that you're responding to what you want people to think I said, rather than what I actually said.

I get that a lot on here.

Either it's poor comprehension skills or dishonesty, both are plausible explanations IMO, so take your pick. 🤷‍♂️

Nice try, but no cigar.

@EnterName  you seem to think there is a clique that is somehow different thinking to you regarding any subject or thread that you are posting in. 

If there is a clique within the membership of Briskoda then they seem to not agree on everything others in the clique post but might agree with some things.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@EnterName  you seem to think there is a clique that is somehow different thinking to you regarding any subject or thread that you are posting in. 

If there is a clique within the membership of Briskoda then they seem to not agree on everything others in the clique post but might agree with some things.

 

 

Just noticing patterns of behaviour, George.

@EnterName  Maybe just people that are WOKE,

as in aware and just not in agreement with your ideas and beliefs and versions of truths or facts so not a clique, just different thinking people about stuff than your thoughts.

 

 

33 minutes ago, EnterName said:

 

I see you have the attention of the Clique, so I'm sorry to have to point out that I NEVER SAID YOU OBJECTED TO ME NOT WANTING AN EV.😄

Oof! And with the leader of the Clique cheering you on, too. 😄

Here's the relevant portion of my post.

That is a request that you not object to me wanting one.

I didn't claim that you had, that's all in your head, pal.

I even had ChatGPT parse the sentence to see if it is an accusation of some sort.

Computer says "No!". <cough>

 

The problem is that you're responding to what you want people to think I said, rather than what I actually said.

I get that a lot on here.

Either it's poor comprehension skills or dishonesty, both are plausible explanations IMO, so take your pick. 🤷‍♂️

Nice try, but no cigar.

Let's lay this out plain and simple for you 

1. Post was not edited when quoting. Seems like you've decided to move on from your previous lie. 

2. You have posted 2 contradictory points. (see below) 

3. I am directly responding to your points I feel need responding and all the acusations. Everything is based on what you wrote. 

4. If you get a lot of people responding in such way, that you feel is different to what you said, perhaps you are the one with poor comprehension or dishonest. (your words) 

 

 

2 expanded: 

" I NEVER SAID YOU OBJECTED TO ME NOT WANTING AN EV.😄"

Contradicts with your computer: 

"the speaker should have the same freedom to not want one without being criticized or judged."

Again, please be reminded that you were not "criticized" or judged in any shape or form. Find us the post that you were "criticized" or judged in talks about "market is right" or move on from your latest lie, your pick. 

In other news...........

 

Fossil fuels, the Beginning of the End according to Bloomberg etc.....

Good riddance to the Earth killing muck.  

 

 

36 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

In other news...........

 

Fossil fuels, the Beginning of the End according to Bloomberg etc.....

Good riddance to the Earth killing muck.  

 

 

 

Hmmm...   I'm not sure we're there just yet...

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

@EnterName  Maybe just people that are WOKE,

as in aware and just not in agreement with your ideas and beliefs and versions of truths or facts so not a clique, just different thinking people about stuff than your thoughts.

Disagreement with me is welcome. It provokes me into testing my opinions.

If I can't back up an opinion I hold to my own satisfaction (never mind the rest of the people on here), I have to revisit it and may have to adjust it accordingly.

However, people trying to gang up and bully me off a forum will be responded to in the spirit they attack me.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Find us the post that you were "criticized" or judged in talks about "market is right" or move on from your latest lie, your pick. 

@wyx087, you don't get to keep lifting hoops up for me to jump through. 😄

Here is what I want to say: DO  NOT  OBJECT  TO  ME  NOT  WANTING  AN  EV.

If I can try and paraphrase (and expand upon it) what you've said in reply, your response to that is "I haven't, and I promise to never object to you or anyone else not wanting an EV.".

If that is the case, then we're good. 👍

5 minutes ago, EnterName said:

@wyx087, you don't get to keep lifting hoops up for me to jump through. 😄

Here is what I want to say: DO  NOT  OBJECT  TO  ME  NOT  WANTING  AN  EV.

If I can try and paraphrase (and expand upon it) what you've said in reply, your response to that is "I haven't, and I promise to never object to you or anyone else not wanting an EV.".

If that is the case, then we're good. 👍

Yes, we are good, we have always been. This is about discussions on the market, not who said what. 

 

But I must say, I did not promise anything.  Looks like you wish to "paraphrase and expand" by adding your imaginary words. 

 

Still it is a mystery why you would elect to say such thing ("Don't object to me not wanting one.") completely unprompted when we are talking about completely different topics. 

 

 

Now let's get back to your statement "market is always right", it's not. As per my example with GM EV1, car companies resisting any and all change, and unions not wanting change of competency. 

The topic then evolved into climate science, where I highlighted personal opinions doesn't matter in discussions about scentific topics, suggested learning about the scentific method. 

23 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Now let's get back to your statement "market is always right", it's not.

The market is always right, so long as nobody messes around with it. As soon as someone messes about with it, then it stops being "the market", and transitions into a "policy".

The sale of EVs in the UK is driven Government policy, it is not driven by the market, which doesn't much care for them.

 

EDIT: I realise you didn't promise NOT to object to people wanting one, I was just trying to work out where you were on the issue so I extrapolated beyond the data to see if you corrected me in the event I was incorrect.

I was.

Your position seems to "I haven't objected to anyone not wanting an EV yet, but I make no promises going forward.". Which is fair enough, if I've got that right.

It also makes my original "Don't object to me not wanting one." statement appropriate and relevant, seeing as you appear to have reserved the right to object to me (or others) not wanting one at some point in the future.

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by EnterName

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

In other news...........

 

Fossil fuels, the Beginning of the End according to Bloomberg etc.....

Good riddance to the Earth killing muck.  

 

 

Shame he didn't actually show what Bloomberg were claiming. As EV sales increase and petrol and diesel sales decrease the use of fossil fuels will also decrease, but in the UK it is estimated that 96% of cars on the roads are ICE, so the demand for petrol and diesel is not going to dissappear that fast and OPEC swings production levels to suit demand and control the price.

I wonder if he predicted Harris to win the US election 🤔 

 

It looks like fossil fuels are still currently in demand.

 

 

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by moley
Typo

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

In other news...........

 

Fossil fuels, the Beginning of the End according to Bloomberg etc.....

Good riddance to the Earth killing muck.  

 

 

I seriously doubt that somehow. 

 

I find it somewhat strange that we are attaching so much importance that he is almost alone in saying that China will anywhere near those figures that are being claimed. Please remember that this may well propaganda that the Chinese government want everybody to believe, it is a very secretive country. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other people around who are claiming that the reality is the reverse with loads of EV fires daily and power outages with very long queues for charging stations with many EV owners allegedly saying that they regret buying an electric car and are going back to petrol powered cars. Like always, time will be decider on if this true or not.

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

I think predicting the end of fossil fuels is a bit to early in my view. Yes no doubt there will come a time when  fossil fuel will cease to be extracted, there cannot be an endless supply of it at the rate we are using it, the end is a certainty at some point. 

 

But will replace it is the question, could be electric, or some other fuel, but I honestly cannot see the progression of electric cars with the current chemistry of the batteries with all the inherent problems they have, even Norway is now beginning to understand that and are supposed to be looking banning the certain locations. 

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think predicting the end of fossil fuels is a bit to early in my view. Yes no doubt there will come a time when  fossil fuel will cease to be extracted, there cannot be an endless supply of it at the rate we are using it, the end is a certainty at some point. 

 

But will replace it is the question, could be electric, or some other fuel, but I honestly cannot see the progression of electric cars with the current chemistry of the batteries with all the inherent problems they have, even Norway is now beginning to understand that and are supposed to be looking banning the certain locations. 

Some other fuel, eh? Look at hydrogen vehicles: A potentially viable alternative to petrol/diesel ICE vehicles, but no government policy to support them.

The market decided it didn't want hydrogen powered cars, and that was pretty much that.

I wonder what things would look like in the UK (and US) for alternative fuel vehicles, if the government policy had been to promote hydrogen vehicles, and EVs had been obliged to succeed without assistance?

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

The market is always right, so long as nobody messes around with it. As soon as someone messes about with it, then it stops being "the market", and transitions into a "policy".

The sale of EVs in the UK is driven Government policy, it is not driven by the market, which doesn't much care for them.

As I keep pointing out (and kept getting ignored) there is also union, car industry itself and other industry messing with it. 
Therefore, by your definition the car market can not be always right, there is always something/someone messing with it for their own gain (workers, industry bosses, oil industry, etc) 

The car market has had those forces messing with it waaaaay before the UK government's ZEV mandate. 

 

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

It also makes my original "Don't object to me not wanting one." statement appropriate and relevant, seeing as you appear to have reserved the right to object to me (or others) not wanting one at some point in the future.

No it was not appropriate and relevant. individual opinions about another individual has zero relevance when talking about market as a whole. 

 

1 minute ago, EnterName said:

no government policy to support them.

2016 UK: Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles: funding fleets to be early adopters - GOV.UK

2023 Japan and Australia: Hydrogen is developing fast in Japan, closer to societal use | World Economic Forum  

 

2 hours ago, skomaz said:

Hmmm...   I'm not sure we're there just yet...

1 hour ago, moley said:

Shame he didn't actually show what Bloomberg were claiming.

The video talks about China's EV and petrol demand. 

 

I'm guessing this is the Bloomberg article: 

China’s EV Boom Threatens Gasoline Demand in Worry for Global Oil Market - Bloomberg

This analysis is by other main stream media: 

China's gasoline demand peak nears as EV boom hastens transition | Reuters

 

As always, worth reading/watching beyond the clickbait titles. 

1 hour ago, moley said:

Shame he didn't actually show what Bloomberg were claiming. As EV sales increase and petrol and diesel sales decrease the use of fossil fuels will also decrease, but in the UK it is estimated that 96% of cars on the roads are ICE, so the demand for petrol and diesel is not going to dissappear that fast and OPEC swings production levels to suit demand and control the price.

I wonder if he predicted Harris to win the US election 🤔 

 

It looks like fossil fuels are still currently in demand.

 

 

 

I think what Bloomberg and the bodies that forewarn of the decline in the use of hydrocarbons for motive power could be a very steep decline based on data that most cars being bought in China are now electric.

 

Whilst there will be diesel and petrol vehicles around for another couple of decades and the percentage of such cars registered will look quite high the actual number of miles run by non electric vehicles compared to electric vehicles will tell a different story.  The "driver" being that electric vehicles are being run on the road at a fraction of the cost compared to those vehicles running on diesel/petrol.  It increasingly becomes an economic imperative to use EVs, particularly for businesses hence the mass adoption of EVs by parcel carriers, the PO as well as individuals who see the initial or PCP cost has been a bit higher but the running costs are a fraction to what they were paying out with ICE vehicles.  I would put in the best part of £200 a month, sometimes £300 to £400 a month but with an EV the energy costs are less than £100 a month plus servicing costs are less than half of ICE servicing.

 

I would anticipate, and I think Bloomberg and the energy experts who are extrapolating the effect of the vehicles on the road doing the miles been increasingly EVs rather than ICE that the graph of  Coal, Oil  and gas will have a similarly quickly drop as they have in the rise over the last 50/60 years.  Solar and Wind are so cheap to produce, batteries have become a tenth on the cost they were in the last ten years that the economic argument, quite separate but running alongside, the pollution argument in cities will see ICE vehicles become the minority on our roads within the next 15 years I expect and that will see the Arab producers, Iran, Russia etc seeing a vast fall in their revenue.   

 

TESLA must be making huge profits doing what ever TESLA does, be it selling cars, trucks, energy products, calls / batteries, power walls / home / workplace electricity storage. 

 

VW Group or maybe just VW seems to be getting things very very wrong, or is that just spin?

Them wanting to pay less and make more money. 

58 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The video talks about China's EV and petrol demand. 

Indeed it is, but the inference is that as China reduces it's use of petrol and diesel this will lead to a collapse of the global supply system. One statement he made was that as less and less petrol and diesel is required there will be less and less fuel stations as they will not be viable and you might have to drive long distances to find a fuel station. I think he said that the the drop in demand for fossil fuels in China would be 5% per year up to 2030. While it probably is a tipping point of fuel sales in China I'm not convinced by that decline for demand for fossil fuels will be that rapid.

As always, people behind these sort of predictions have their own agenda to push, often making logical jumps in order to arrive at their conclusion. The end result many years down the road will always be somewhere in between. 

 

Having been 1 year ago, I don't feel the friendly sentiment towards EV. I've not met any extreme hostility towards EV like some on this forum, but there's large percent still view petrol station as easiest. So personally, I also don't feel the decline will be as sharp as predicted, even in China. 

31 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

TESLA must be making huge profits doing what ever TESLA does, be it selling cars, trucks, energy products, calls / batteries, power walls / home / workplace electricity storage. 

 

VW Group or maybe just VW seems to be getting things very very wrong, or is that just spin?

Them wanting to pay less and make more money. 

 

The money they make trading their EV/carbon licences is in the billions on its own.

 

If I would have even half considered a Tesla a month or so ago I certainly would not after he joined up with Trump.

I get so much more stalks with a Scenic than a model 3.

 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

The video talks about China's EV and petrol demand. 

 

 

So...   as I said...   I'm not sure WE're there yet...

 

As always, worth reading things properly before posting slightly derogatory responses...

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by skomaz

@lol-lolI think you paint a far too simplistic a picture of the whole EV v ICE. EVs are only cheaper to run if you can manage charge at home or at the workplace. Look at the vast amounts of real estate required to build a charging hub, that is not cheap, given the amount of time that it takes to charge an EV, the operators of the hubs need to make a lot of money in order purchase/lease the land and the expense of building the hub, getting the grid connection etc also mega expensive. I'm afraid I don't share your view, yes EVs do have a place in overall mix but solely, no, just what else will be there I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm fairly sure that EVs will not be the lions share of vehicles on the road just as diesel isn't today, despite that was once the policy of the UK government and was pushed down people's throats in much the same fashion as EVs are now. 

The majority of people who buy a car do NOT buy a new car. Used electric cars seem even harder to sell than new ones, which is not really surprising as electric cars have a much more limited life than an ICE car. I have never bought a new car and usually buy a one or two year old car that has had some of the depreciation taken out of it. For this I get a car which feels virtually new and has many years of life left in it. Doing the same with an electric car would give me a much shorter life and the car would be virtually worthless at the end of the batteries life. We will be in a situation where there are thousands of perfectly good cars that are scrap just due to the batteries being too expensive to replace. It doesn't sound very ECO to me.