Well its now 100%% official, PPM is coming in 2028 but currently only for BEV and PHEV, even though most PHEV's will never be plugged in, so for those poor souls it will be a double whammy, fuel duty and PPM, so it was less of conspiracy theory after all and was the result of leaks, although to be perfectly fair, its so bleeding obvious that as fuel duty was reducing, they had to come up with some other way of replacing that money and certain YouTubers were predicting this a couple of years ago. MSM has to follow the narrative whereas YouTubers don't, and some have even been demonetised for some of their content in an attempt to shut them up. So they seem a pretty creditable source of information, a bit like Mercedes-Benz cars are often ahead of the curve as far as in car tech is concerned.

So with the apps unpaired the car seems to be taking charge when offered by the charger.
Although now the VW app no longer shows any % for the car at all.
So I think the finger of suspicion is firmly pointed at VW for a botched update since all these issues really started after a VW app update a few days ago.

Seems like the one thing that could kill the EV market properly is software. It simply seems like the suppliers are immature in their development of software.
This might actually be an area where Tesla can lead since they seemd to be a software company first.

The Gov is also doing it's best to kill the market as well. At 3ppm running an electric car is still financially benefitical as long as the electricity is cheap. If we were paying the standard rate for electricity to charge the car it would be cheaper to drive a diesel.

For those missed it, here is a thread for the confirmed pay per mile tax:

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well its now 100%% official, PPM is coming in 2028 but currently only for BEV and PHEV, even though most PHEV's will never be plugged in, so for those poor souls it will be a double whammy, fuel duty and PPM, so it was less of conspiracy theory after all and was the result of leaks, although to be perfectly fair, its so bleeding obvious that as fuel duty was reducing, they had to come up with some other way of replacing that money and certain YouTubers were predicting this a couple of years ago. MSM has to follow the narrative whereas YouTubers don't, and some have even been demonetised for some of their content in an attempt to shut them up. So they seem a pretty creditable source of information, a bit like Mercedes-Benz cars are often ahead of the curve as far as in car tech is concerned.

It will encourage plugging it in

Plugging in a PHEV with a 20 kWh battery @ a public charger & 50 pence a kWh, £10. For maybe 55-60 miles on Electric. No incentive there. If Petrol is £6.50 a gallon.

26 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

It will encourage plugging it in

Apart from, it is highly likely that loads of them will be company cars or salary sacrifice cars chosen for the BIK and most likely unable to charge at home.

Maybe foolish in the light of the software issues some have been having but I am thinking of switching to IOG, mainly as I can get the cheap rate at 6p/kWh due to having an Octopus car.

One thing I wanted to check...

If, for example I plugged my car in at 7am and asked it to add a very small amount of charge - like 1-2% and asked for it to be ready by 8am, would I still get 30 minutes or 1 hour of cheap electricity for the whole house? Even if the actual charge period is much shorter than that?

48 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

Maybe foolish in the light of the software issues some have been having but I am thinking of switching to IOG, mainly as I can get the cheap rate at 6p/kWh due to having an Octopus car.

One thing I wanted to check...

If, for example I plugged my car in at 7am and asked it to add a very small amount of charge - like 1-2% and asked for it to be ready by 8am, would I still get 30 minutes or 1 hour of cheap electricity for the whole house? Even if the actual charge period is much shorter than that?

Minimum IOG amount on Octopus app (assuming you haven't got Ohme? That's a different system) is to add 10%.

But if you ask for car to be charged (+10%) and ready in the following hour for the morning, it will force their hand and give you cheap slots.

The slots are only active if your "smart device" (their T&C wording, in case of IOG, it is the connected EV) is charging. So if your car becomes full within 10min, you'll only get that first 30min at cheap rate.

So in your example, you will get 30min to 1 hour of cheap rate, depend on how much your car charges.

Depend on your charge point. You can also keep IOG smart charging turned off. With my Indra charge point, it would just flash white for waiting for schedule, wouldn't charge unless I press BOOST button on it. I can then turn on IOG smart charging in bed instead of go out and plug it in. The end result is the same, IOG detects smart device and allocates a schedule.

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Minimum IOG amount on Octopus app (assuming you haven't got Ohme? That's a different system) is to add 10%.

My charger is an Ohme...

17 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

So in your example, you will get 30min to 1 hour of cheap rate, depend on how much your car charges.

So I guess the trick would be to try and activate the charge so it straddles two 30 minutes slots if the requested charge is likely to take less than half an hour.

As I don't need to do much home charging, trying to get as much of my home use on to the cheap rate will probably determine which tariff is best overall.

On 26/11/2025 at 16:55, Evolution13 said:

Plugging in a PHEV with a 20 kWh battery @ a public charger & 50 pence a kWh, £10. For maybe 55-60 miles on Electric. No incentive there. If Petrol is £6.50 a gallon.

Ah but they do over 700 mpg, ha ha.

20 kwh should get you 70 miles or so even for a fat / heavy PHEV with two whole traction systems !

Electricity will be almost free, well 5p a kwh or less for those who part generate their own and have grid connection at these cheap night time rates to be used when no sun shine ....

@lol-lol Report 3. Winter, public charging. Not the fictional official figures.

1 hour ago, Evolution13 said:

@lol-lol Report 3. Winter, public charging. Not the fictional official figures.

The current lab test for PHEVs is just rubbish.

Most PHEVs or non PHEV hybrids do not have heat pumps.

So in the WLTP lab which is at some 22C one does not reach for the heating.

With our Clio hybrid it could do 80 mpg in warm weather. Did not need the heating so starting in electric and if only light throttle needed it could stay in EV mode well over half the time.

Those who buy PHEVs, especially with the majority which do not have heat pumps will find that massively inefficient ICE firing up in cool, cold weather, firing up that great lump of an engine just to bring up the cooling water to warm up the cabin occupants.

Instead of seeing 400, 500, 600, 700 mpg they will see 50, 60, 70, 80 mpg.

PHEV Hybrid owners are dreaming if they think they will achieve anything like the fanciful published mpg then they will turm on the manufacturers.

Hopefully a meaningful rise in the Road Tax when it relates to the actual on the road CO2 and mpg and they will not be sucked to believing they have hit on some magical do it all peice of tech.

Government will get its big VAT collect on these cars which will still need lots of fuel to keep them going, even with home charging, unless the car has a heat pump, sn government will get excuse duty and VAT on the fuel plus the 1.5p per mile mileage charge, nice for them. PHEV Owners will feel very hard done by.

Go full BEV and not some Jack of some trades and Master of none !

@lol-lol in that scenario the real advantage that PHEV offers over a BEV is one of range and the disappearance of the much touted range anxiety as they can go from almost empty to full in about 5 minutes. As you pointed out, the inequality between the BIK of a BEV and a PHEV, plus in addition the 1.5p per miles and the increased VAT that PHEVs will be paying just (in my view) highlights just how little governments actually understand the fundamental differences between the types of vehicles and the resultant impact on the Net-Zero policies.

Clearly they have been paying too much attention to so-called "Think Tanks" who I have always said have vested interests in getting a particular strategy adopted.

Edited 27 November, 202527 Nov by Graham Butcher

51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

The current lab test for PHEVs is just rubbish.

Most PHEVs or non PHEV hybrids do not have heat pumps.

So in the WLTP lab which is at some 22C one does not reach for the heating.

With our Clio hybrid it could do 80 mpg in warm weather. Did not need the heating so starting in electric and if only light throttle needed it could stay in EV mode well over half the time.

Those who buy PHEVs, especially with the majority which do not have heat pumps will find that massively inefficient ICE firing up in cool, cold weather, firing up that great lump of an engine just to bring up the cooling water to warm up the cabin occupants.

Instead of seeing 400, 500, 600, 700 mpg they will see 50, 60, 70, 80 mpg.

PHEV Hybrid owners are dreaming if they think they will achieve anything like the fanciful published mpg then they will turm on the manufacturers.

Hopefully a meaningful rise in the Road Tax when it relates to the actual on the road CO2 and mpg and they will not be sucked to believing they have hit on some magical do it all peice of tech.

Government will get its big VAT collect on these cars which will still need lots of fuel to keep them going, even with home charging, unless the car has a heat pump, sn government will get excuse duty and VAT on the fuel plus the 1.5p per mile mileage charge, nice for them. PHEV Owners will feel very hard done by.

Go full BEV and not some Jack of some trades and Master of none !

Quite a lot of PHEVS have PTC cabin heaters so don't need to fire up the ICE to provide heat...

Even my old Honda Civic diesel had one due to its thermal efficiency.

Edited 27 November, 202527 Nov by skomaz

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol in that scenario the real advantage that PHEV offers over a BEV is one of range and the disappearance of the much touted range anxiety as they can go from almost empty to full in about 5 minutes. As you pointed out, the inequality between the BIK of a BEV and a PHEV, plus in addition the 1.5p per miles and the increased VAT that PHEVs will be paying just (in my view) highlights just how little governments actually understand the fundamental differences between the types of vehicles and the resultant impact on the Net-Zero policies.

Clearly they have been paying too much attention to so-called "Think Tanks" who I have always said have vested interests in getting a particular strategy adopted.

I have signed up to the Pay per Mile consultation and it demonstrates just at what an elemental stage the government is at with the questions they are at.

Garages would need to do a certified check as the mileage on those EVs and Hybrids end of year 1 and two, possible at service time but some cars only need a service every two year 18k or so miles.

Revenue for garages which are being left doing a lot less chargeable work with EVs as they need less maintenance and use less service parts so typically earn garages much less revenue so this would be a way for them to earn some more and do a check on the car where they could possibly get some more work by hook or by crook.

The consultancy questions got more obscure as one worked way thru the question paper.

Typical politicians construct, all over the place, clearly trying to consider multiple strands of how to do. If the government get a coherent policy by 2028 I will be amazed.

Just create some more toll roads and gave electronic tags like most other places, base tax on Gross Vehicle Weight and vehicle type and actually reduce VED.

4 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Quite a lot of PHEVS have PTC cabin heaters so don't need to fire up the ICE to provide heat...

Even my old Honda Civic diesel had one due to its thermal efficiency.

PTC heater is going to either eat up the electrical energy of the batteries and whilst it may be near 100% efficiency and then will need topping up by that ICE with its efficiency of 30 or 40% or so.

The Heat Pump would gave an efficency of circa 300 to 400%.

PTC are only used in EVs that are the cheap ones where cost is wanted to be kept right down. Think the new R5 FIVE is going to have this type of cabin heating ie no Heat Pump, no DC charging, absolute bare bones model.

Surprises me so few PHEVs have Heat Pumps, even expensive models but all about biuld price i suppose.

@lol-lol so where does the heat pump derive its energy source from if not the batteries, then. Strikes me as both heat pump and PTC will be consuming power from the batteries?

Just now, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol so where does the heat pump derive its energy source from if not the batteries, then. Strikes me as both heat pump and PTC will be consuming power from the batteries?

The heat pump uses a small amount of energy from the battery and then as Montgomery Scott would say it uses the laws of physics, reversed Rankin cycle if memory serves, a fridge cycle in reverse and actually grabs energy from the ambient outside ambient air to cabin air and manages to do this with an efficiency of several times more than 100% which sounds like magic and

almost is really.

If we had enough heat pumps in the world we could probably reverse climate change !!

Edited 27 November, 202527 Nov by lol-lol

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

If we had enough heat pumps in the world we could probably reverse climate change !!

Sounds great in theory, but perhaps, that could equally be achieved if we switched off all fridges, freezers and AC units and go back to the dark ages 👀

25 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I have signed up to the Pay per Mile consultation

Do you mind sharing link/how to sign up to this? If it's open to the public?

On mileage checking, I suppose Tesla could do mileage checks remotely on the cheap. It's been over 3 years, my Tesla has only ever been seen by MOT tester at almost 3 years old. Apart from initial niggles sorted out by warranty, it has not need any servicing and I've only spent £20 on wipers and £50 on MOT over the 3+ years of ownership.

There's no chance in hell I'm wasting time visiting + wasting money paying a garage just to log my mileage in order to pay tax.

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol so where does the heat pump derive its energy source from if not the batteries, then. Strikes me as both heat pump and PTC will be consuming power from the batteries?

Although both electricity comes from battery.

1 kWh of heat from resistive PTC heater need 1 kWh of electricity.

1 kWh of heat from heat pump only need ~0.3 kWh of electricity.

Heat pumps make energy go a lot further.

Opposite of hydrogen conversion, carbon capture and ICE, where energy are wasted.

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Do you mind sharing link/how to sign up to this? If it's open to the public?

https://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/eVEDconsultation/

24 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

https://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/eVEDconsultation/

Bloody hell... They can't even get the dates right... That consultation says it closes in March 2025!!!... I assume they meant to say 2026.

34 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Bloody hell... They can't even get the dates right... That consultation says it closes in March 2025!!!... I assume they meant to say 2026.

Overworked and understaffed bureaucracy no doubt.

Yesterday i read the article in 'This is money' and mention in the first 3 years the BEV would still be taken to a MOT Test Center to have the mileage checked, and the government / Tax payers would cover the cost.

Yesterday almost every comment i read from EV drivers being asked about the cost of EV,s and would the 3 pence matter, were home chargers or business drivers. Discussion now on BBC Scotland Radio. Nobody seems to mention the 20% VAT at Public Chargers and the cost of charging possibly 10 times those home charging at offpeak. PS. Yesterday my trip cost £4 from the home charge & £6.50 public 50 kW charging. It will be a minimum £30 for the return trip if i do 7kW AC charging @ 50 pence a kWh. or £42 if i Rapid / 50 kW charge in South Ayrshire.

Edited 28 November, 202528 Nov by Evolution13