If you were going to charge a hybrid car with a relatively small battery from your domestic supply, ie straight from a 13 amp mains socket, but the car in question had an onboard 7kw charger, what would happen. Would the charger try and draw around 30 amps and so the inevitable would happen, or do they have a mechanism to select a lower rate of charge? I'm thinking of the Peugeot 3008 hybrid model if anyone has specific experience of this model in particular. 

The 3 pin 13 amp charger which you are using takes care of things.  

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

I thought that some cars, ie the 3008 hybrididdy had an onboard charger? Does that not mean you are reliant on it to draw the correct current? Or do you get a thing like in your picture that can also limit current going into your 7kw car? 

So when you plug into a 7 kWh charger with the Type 2 AC the onboard charger will be charging @6.6 kWh or what ever.

As i do with a Hybrid or EV with a 7 kWh onboard.

 

Charging with the 3 pin is not going to give more than it can.

 

but, you can do a bit better with the right one.

 

 

What I wondered was if there was a way to current limit the charge rate from a domestic socket. The draw from a 7kw charger would pop fuses or knock off relays in a regular house when fed from a domestic socket. If the car also has a secondary charger that can plug into a domestic socket, I guess it would current limit as a precaution, but I don't know if this is compatible with the 7kw charger on board?  I am assuming the car in the vid has a 3kw-ish on board charger as standard. Apparently if you want a 7kw on board charger, you have to spec it when you order it, which is why I figured the car had the charger inbuilt. But it may well be only the inverter part of the system that then charges the car's traction battery and the little box in the video is the current supply controller if you see what I mean 

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by Lady Elanore

The onboard 7 kW charger is not requesting 7 kW it gets what it is given.  

If it simply draws what it can get it will trip my ringmain out 

 

A 3kw kettle draws around 13amp and you can feel the fuse get hot. 7kw would draw way too much current  

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by Lady Elanore

It is only getting 7 kWh if you put it on a 7kWh charger. 

Put a car with a 7kWh onboard charger on a 3 kWh source it can only get 3 kWh.

 

Put one with an 11 kWh onboard charger on a 7kWh charger and it will only get 7 kWh charge speed, or less.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

If you put a short across a domestic mains cable, it doesn't current limit, so I figured that if the 7KW tries to draw more than 13amp, something has to give. There is no current limit in my electrics and the house will be on a fairly big current supply as it can support many kws of stuff simultaneously. I have an older house, so think it will be around 60amp supply. A 7kw device will not cuase a change in voltage but as far as I can see it will try and pull too much current for my house 😞 I wondered if the device the Irish chap used in your vid could be used with the on board 7kw charger, as the chap showed you can adjust the maximum current demand. 

 

The more I think about it, the cars onboard charger will probably be OK with the throttled current feed from such a device, as the voltage will be constant and it's inverter will just lower the available recharge current. 

If the onboard specific 7kw charger - as opposed to the standard onboard 3kw charger - is purely a mechanical design difference, eg bigger heat sinks and thicker copper cabling and so on, then I guess it's the external current limiting box that is what protects your house. What I can't find out is what the difference between onboard chargers.

You need a dedicated wallbox to charge at 7Kw, the 3pin plug in charger will only ever do 3kW max, probably actually 2.4kw (10amp)

 

The wall box and the 3 pin plug in charger cable are not chargers, they are simple controllers, that can start/stop a charge and tell the vehicle's charger what the limit is for power drawn. A bit like USB cables.

 

https://www.savemoneycutcarbon.com/learn-save/charging-leads-type-1-and-type-2-whats-the-difference/

 

https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/connectors-speeds/

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by xman

The plug on the cable have a resistor to tell the car how much power the cable is capable of. This information is also communicated by the EVSE (EV supply equipment, the thing shown in post 2) before charging session can start.

 

The EVSE should also have a temperature sensor on the plug pins so that it would stop charging if the domestic plug overheats.

 

But! Those domestic EVSE cables are meant for emergency-only, they will charge at 10 amp, not 13 amp due to prolonged charging session at 13 amp is a large ask compared to a few minutes for the kettle. Safest and best way to charge an EV is to get a wallbox (which itself is an EVSE, not AC-DC charger) installed with dedicated RCBO and 40 amp armoured cable from your meter output or consumer unit (fuse box).

I've been to see the Peugeot man on my way home tonight. The 3008 is normally fitted with a standard 3.7kW onboard charger. It also comes with a 13amp, 3 pin domestic plug, to type 2 AC plug (although I guess strictly speaking it's a socket as you wouldn't have a plug if it had live voltage on it's pins that you could touch). Anyhoo that has a current limiter that will prevent the domestic plug drawing more than 13 amps and is in fact somewhere below this. This is what I had assumed, more or less. The 13amp box isn't for emergency only however, as it's only a small traction battery involved, it will only charge for a few hours at most.

 

The 7kW onboard charger can still be used with the above 13amp domestic interface and this will still protect your domestic socket and ring main for overloading in the first place. It shouldn't make much difference to the charge time compared to the 3.7/3 kW onboard charger version. Although I suppose the inverter may be slightly different and so a slight change in efficiency will alter the charge times very slightly. 

 

I asked the above questions, as a friend of mine is going to be staying with me for a couple of weeks and is bringing the afore mentioned 3008 to stay along with her (I've made a nice comfy bed up for the car too, of course). I said it would be fine to charge it on my domestic supply before she raised the question of the 7kW charger. She has a proper charge point at home that is wired into the house supply. Anyhoo as long as she has the 13amp interface buggery box it should be fine. She is going to ask her husband if he has any idea if they own one   I suspect he will be of no use, as he is even less technically minded than she is  

I think some of the confusion is that the car has its own inbuilt charger, one that is fixed in the car and as I have no experience of EVs, I didn't know that the 13amp adapter can come with a current limiting device. I see now that the 3.7kW car has the 13amp as a standard accessory and the 7kW does not, but that the same adapter is entirely compatible with its workings. I am definitely not getting a 7kW charge point fitted to my house and the idea of a load balancer is not one I will entertain as I love electricity and use as much of it as I can at any one time   (most of it is used in my home entertainment system  I think )

So an empty to full charge would be 6 hours on a 3 pin and regardless of a 3.6 kw or 7 kW charger used it is 4 hours.

They can go on a 22 kW charger for a 2 hour charge.

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/peugeot/2020/3008-suv

 

If your home tariff is 20 pence a kWh and you are taking in 13 kWh then that is £2.60 a charge to take you maybe 30 miles on the electric. 

 

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

I am definitely not getting a 7kW charge point fitted to my house and the idea of a load balancer is not one I will entertain

 

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

The 13amp box isn't for emergency only however, as it's only a small traction battery involved, it will only charge for a few hours at most.

 

The 13 amp portable EVSE with domestic socket is not advised to be used as primary charging device, the domestic socket is not designed for prolonged high power delivery and the home circuitry is an unknown factor.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-car-charging-at-home/

Quote

Most manufacturers recommend three-pin charging as a last resort only. Some sockets aren’t rated for long periods of continuous heavy usage – especially if you’re thinking of using an extension cable. Best to use a three-pin charger as an emergency option, or if you’re visiting somewhere without its own charger.

As a result, manufacturers are increasingly refusing to supply three-pin chargers as standard equipment.

 

 

The 7kW home charging point is designed to be primary charging source for EV. It has dedicated RCBO (aka fuse box) that connects to leccy input point (rather than through questionable existing circuitry), it would have 40 amp dedicated armoured cable to the weatherproof box, the box contains safety checking circuitry and the socket is well designed for prolonged high amp power delivery.

 

The reason for load balancer is to prevent tripping main house fuse when charging EV. It wouldn't kick-in if you follow best practice: use charge scheduler built-in the car to schedule charging overnight while people are asleep.

If you cook with 13 amp oven, together with a 13 amp kettle, with 4 amp microwave plus 45 amp electric shower, oh and have last-minute dishwasher going at 13 amp, that's 88 amp in total, very close to 100 amp limit on the house fuse, it's much safer to have a wallbox reduce EV charging speed than adding 13 amp to unnecessarily charge the EV.

 

The biggest advantage to having a battery is so that charging is secondary to your usage needs. Having a load balancer so you don't need to worry that your house wiring is a fire hazard and only prolong charging by a few 1/10 of mile is well worth the price of charging unit, in addition being a lot more robust when charging. Finally, there's the convenience factor: just plug-in a cable like at petrol stations, Vs  faffing with a cable from the boot and having to plug-in both ends.

 

If you already have your PHEV on order, it's well worth to see if you can get 7kW wallbox installed before end of March. With plug-in car invoice, you can get a gov grant until end of March.

https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/olev-grant

 

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

If your home tariff is 20 pence a kWh and you are taking in 13 kWh then that is £2.60 a charge to take you maybe 30 miles on the electric. 

That's just 2.3 mi/kWh...... that dead-weight under the bonnet really affects efficiency!

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by wyx087

@wyx087  I am not even getting 2.3 miles a kWh at present and that is without an engine under the bonnet. 

Again 31kWh of electric used in 7 days to do 31 miles only.  

(i could go on a 30 mile run and use only 10 kWh worth.)

 

 

Here he gives totally different figures on a 7 kW charger for the 3008 plug in hybrid.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

The car above is the prefacelift model as far as I can tell, I don't know if that makes a difference.

 

As for the 13amp charge thing, somebody should tell Peugeot about the danger of domestic charging. Mind you, my home entertainment spends several hours a day burning though a fair bit of juice. (the additional power amps don't help). Still, it helps keep the room warm.  

People are using 3 pin chargers all the time to charge plug in hybrids.  

Best using Off Peak if your house usage is little during night time. 

 

 The thing is now many people are putting stuff on Off Peak times as in the old days of money being too tight to mention. 

 

Even Norwegians with Loads of Money are not happy at the cost of Electricity and home car charging.

Night time cooking / baking and washing and stuff is back in fashion.

 

But if the tariff is the same day or night then charging with the 3 pin while the house / occupants are sleeping and not turning stuff on makes sense. 

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

14 minutes ago, roottoot said:

I am not even getting 2.3 miles a kWh at present and that is without an engine under the bonnet. 

Again 31kWh of electric used in 7 days to do 31 miles only.  

(i could go on a 30 mile run and use only 10 kWh worth.)

I really don't know how you are getting such low numbers.

I'm averaging almost 4 mi/kWh for lifetime figure, take away charging loss the figure comparable to yours should be around 3.5mi/kWh.

Recently, Saturday in windy and cold conditions, I drove 15 + 20 miles, that was from 90% and then charged back to 80%, used 10 kWh measured by my meter. That translates to 3 to 3.5 mi/kWh.

 

Home entertainment will generally pull a lot less than 2kW. My gaming computer keeps the study warmer than rest of the house when I was mining crypto, that draws 500w peak. A 55inch TV only draws 100w at most.

Whereas charging EV would draw 10 amps 2.5kW (this is Nissan's 3-pin EVSE) continuously for many hours.

 

Dealers don't know anything, case in point: https://www.speakev.com/threads/have-i-been-unlucky-or-are-all-manufacturers-clueless-electrically-and-connectivity-wise.167031/

@wyx087 Your location shows as North London and really the low temperatures you have as an average are rather different from much of the UK especially a few hundred miles north.

 

I am getting what i am getting because i am just going 0.7 miles 6 times a day and it has been cold.

Snowy and icy!

One way is down hill and the other is up hill and that is what it does, when the temp gets to 10 *oC and above like today then things are back to normal.

 

Go for a few miles and then it will be back to 2.7 to maybe even 4 miles per kWh

 

EDIT,

bottom pics

what was possible early on with Cross Climates on and even the 4 miles a kWh locally with Alpin 6 tyres. 

 

@Lady Elanore

If there is a Tesco near with PodPoint then your guests car would only need and hour every now and again for free charging on the 7 kWh chargers.

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

I've already borrowed a nice long 16amp extension cable for the job  She is charging on my leccy, whether she likes it or not  

 

besides, I'm intrigued by the whole thing  

Edited 20 February, 20224 yr by Lady Elanore

My car has a 22 kW onboard charger and I charge it with either the 10A 220-240 volt granny cable or my 3.6 kW wall charger.  No problem. All these chargers and the car are "intelligent" and adapt during the electronic handshakes.

 

Some Zoe's have 43 kW on board chargers but will happily charger a 2, 3.6, 7.2, 11, 16, 22 or 43 kw with their Chameleon chargers.

The patented system goes in to detail in the video below but the key information is actually that with Renault it uses the same piece of electrics that supplies the motor during driving, but working backwards, to charge the 400v battery pack, hence Renaults can charge from AC faster than any other mainstream cars including Teslas.

Some Zoes, like my Riviera Zoe, as 50 kW DC charging too, though its maximum charge rate is only 45 kW at most as it throttles the amperage to 125 A but as the voltage hits about 370 volts it starts to throttle back the amperage to protect the battery pack. 

Sadly the new EV Megane will only have a 7.4 kW AC charging so bye bye AC charging it looks like except for these little 2, 3.6 and 7 kw domestic and destination chargers. 

 

 

 

 

Forgot - bought my Granny charger from screwfix for £130 inc VAT, 5m cable variety, works very well and used it several times when visit my offices without proper post chargers, most warehouses have external weather plugs or internal 3 pin plug near the doors and then I use a 15m orange 16A extension cable so as not to loose too many volts over the 20 meter, 66 foot length, happy days.  

 

Hmmm never considered voltage drop with a long type 2 cable. (I'm not electrically well educated) I bought the 10m Screwfix granny charger and it works very well, but I'm guessing the losses might be higher? For the amount I use it, I'm not overly worried TBH. I went for the longer cable for the convenience of being able to reach plugs further from the car. Used it in anger for the first time over the weekend and was happy with the boost an overnight 16 hour charge gave.

 

Sorry wandering off topic....