No rapid charging = pointless EV for local runabout only. Not a true ICE replacement car.

 

If it's a decision by Renault UK, then the person has clearly never driven an EV.

 

The base spec model doesn’t and just has high power AC, but the higher spec one has 50kW CCS.

 

I was very thrown when I saw one on an ionity charger.

 

They had 22kW/43kW AC and people like Lol-lol were happy with it. It’s absolutely fine for a city car, which the Zoe mostly is.

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

22 kW is perfectly fine when you have access to 22 kW chargers if your max charging speed is 22 kW AC .

 

There are not that many of them at hubs already or going into charging hubs in the UK. 

 

Businesses / fleets and individuals might be fine with them now but the issue will be down the line when 2022 /23 22 kW AC cars go on the used market. 

 

....................

22 kW AC charging would be lovely to have some places where there are virtually no 50 kW public chargers like near Macduff / Banff (1 in Banff) but you get a couple of chargers posts with 22 kW points (Macduff) .

Not much help for those wanting to get about a tourist area with just 7 or even 11 kW AC charging. 

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

The problem is making people think 22kW is a replacement for real rapid charging and further complicating en-route charging stations. This need to be as straightforward as possible: slower charging at destination, as fast as possible CCS (in Europe) for en-route charging. There has to be a difference between destination and rapid charging. CCS and Chademo enforces that by being physically different plugs. 

 

With the ZE40 having CCS, I thought it would be the end of seeing Type 2's on rapid chargers. I *think* LOL-LOL have the CCS version of the Zoe? 

I go to several hubs with 4-6 50 kW CCS chargers with 43 kW AC chargers on the side and some with 22 kW AC.

 

I know there are Zoe drivers that get peed off because they are occupied by drivers using them with cars that just charge at 7 or 11 kW while there are 7 or 11 or 22 kW chargers there that they could use if the bothered getting their cables out or even knew what was what.

 

6 50kW DC chargers @ Edinburgh with 30 mins max charging time,  then there are 3 22 kW posts so 6 plugs that have a 3 hour max charging time.

Then there are the plentiful 7 kW's that you can be on for 12 hours. 

 

...............

Fortunately here the first row of chargers are 22 kW ones but the 2 EV's are on 43kW AC chargers getting their 11kW if even that.

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

19 hours ago, roottoot said:

 

 

 

The more I watch this fellow the more I feel he is not that bright and just interested in getting hits on his youtube.

 

I have done nearly 8k miles and not used by CCS charging port.

Mine is the very top spec Zoe similar to a GT line.

The PCP for CCS fitted Zoe's was very similar to non-CCS fitted Zoes and my Riviera comes with it as standard.

 

If it was an option and I was paying cash I would have seriously considered no DC charging.   

A near £1k option, if a choice, some people will never use.

Me, it is good to have as a back up and even if I only use half a dozen times in my 4 year lease then OK but as I said no actual choice on my model and PCPs similar where there is.

 

Renault do these things based on market research etc and it sound sensible to me.

 

Just hope 22 kw chargers, as well as the 11 and 16 kw ones stick around.

 

With the damage (fast) DC charging does to the battery and the high cost of it I will only use it as an absolute minimum.

 

Zoe ensures no more than 125A of current is allowed to hit the battery pack so the actually 45 kw charge rate is only there at around the 50%-75% SOC ie when the voltage gets up to about 375v and as the pack nears 400v the amperage drops to under 100 A and this is partly why Zoe batteries stay healthier longer than many other makes.

 

I have got to the point of ignoring EV Nick video.

 

The issue is really when people get handed over a car that they have to go someplace with and sometimes from someone that knows nothing about them and charging.

 

I meet people like these almost daily rocking up to a charger and with no idea what charging they can use and how long it will take them to get some miles into the car. 

A big label in the car, even on the sun visor telling them what the car is and what to use might well be 'Simply too clever' . 

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

The issue is really when people get handed over a car that they have to go someplace with and sometimes from someone that knows nothing about them and charging.

 

I meet people like these almost daily rocking up to a charger and with no idea what charging they can use and how long it will take them to get some miles into the car. 

A big label in the car, even on the sun visor telling them what the car is and what to use might well be 'Simply too clever' . 

Unfortunately it's a systematic issue.

 

Dealerships are staffed by people driving ICE cars and only been on training courses for EV's. People who don't fully understand the difference between EV charging and filling up petrol.

 

The charging speed difference and typical use-cases for each types of charging need to be drilled into people's heads.

Lots around Scotland are in now Hire cars and cars from Car Clubs and should be getting shown how to charge before setting off or trying too before they go places.

 

Now that Charge Place Scotland chargers are quite likely to play up and not read a card or even start from the app i have have given up trying to help people who are sometimes clearly upset by their first experience of trying to get a charge.

 

On 03/08/2022 at 09:22, wyx087 said:

The problem is making people think 22kW is a replacement for real rapid charging and further complicating en-route charging stations. This need to be as straightforward as possible: slower charging at destination, as fast as possible CCS (in Europe) for en-route charging. There has to be a difference between destination and rapid charging. CCS and Chademo enforces that by being physically different plugs. 

 

With the ZE40 having CCS, I thought it would be the end of seeing Type 2's on rapid chargers. I *think* LOL-LOL have the CCS version of the Zoe? 

 

For the 22kW and 11kW, it's not a real rapid charger, but it is a realistic destination charger where cars are charged to re-charge and where the typical stopping time is in the 1-4 hour window. For shopping centres a 7kW is a bit of a joke for a full BEV, but better than nothing and ideal for hybrids.

 

I do think that rapid charging plugs should only appear on cars that need it (Full BEV) and that everything else shouldn't be on the 50kW rapids.

 

  

21 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Unfortunately it's a systematic issue.

 

Dealerships are staffed by people driving ICE cars and only been on training courses for EV's. People who don't fully understand the difference between EV charging and filling up petrol.

 

The charging speed difference and typical use-cases for each types of charging need to be drilled into people's heads.

 

Like the front airbag sticker, it could be put on the passenger visor.

More realistically a connector type and max rate could show up in the large screens each car has when you first turn it on (CCS 100max or Chademo 100max or Type 2 11kW max). If you did it right you could set it to briefly show it when you navigate to chargers or when the battery hits below say 25% (or some custom setting).

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

Us poor or tight people will be using free 7kW chargers as long as we can but having a 22 kW on board charger would be handy.

 

As to only having 22 kW and needing to be 2 or 3 hours on a charger if you do go on a bit of a trip would really be a PITA. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

Us poor or tight people will be using free 7kW chargers as long as we can but having a 22 kW on board charger would be handy.

 

As to only having 22 kW and needing to be 2 or 3 hours on a charger if you do go on a bit of a trip would really be a PITA. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree it would be a PITA, but if you can cut £1000 off a car it will help with those who just want a second car for around town.

A more sensible model naming strategy like City 22AC and Tour or Long Range 50CCS model might help.

Of course if you split into a city car, then you really might as well shring the battery to 150 miles range and save weight and more cost....

A local city car with smaller battery makes a LOT of sense, in fact, we own one

 

Problem is, people seems to be obsessed with EV's range even though people rarely need to exercise this.

Some in Cities can do without cars, actually the majority do.

Location location location gives the opportunity to use public transport and maybe even cheap public transport.

 

People get a call that there is a family emergency and can they get a shift on and they think,

'crap i have a EV with crap range and charging speed' but not to worry i am a city dweller.

 

People might often head off and do 80 miles and even a bit more then want home.

They certainly do in Scotland where the nearest cities are apart by about 55 miles, well with Glasgow & Edinburgh and if you want to head to Perth or on to Inverness or Aberdeen or further then charging is an issue. 

 

I have a crap 135 mile range and get asked to head off 80 miles or so without much notice, no big deal the car is charged up, the PITA is once there and getting charged and having to go places, then getting charged to get home. That really is a time waster around Edinburgh.

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

A local city car with smaller battery makes a LOT of sense, in fact, we own one

 

Problem is, people seems to be obsessed with EV's range even though people rarely need to exercise this.

 

This is kind of why you need fuel cells or similar.

 

People are obsessed as a fill up is potentially long and potentially you end up queuing for a while too.

Then you have the do they work, is there infrastructure, that 300+ mile range is really only 175-200 in winter on the motorway.

Due to that range is super important as people are nervous and don't want to get stranded.

 

Fuel cells work great, but supply is terrible.

If they got even 25-50% of petrol stations to have a hydrogen pump, then that's a fantastic supply network. If that happens you sell an EV with a 30-50kW battery and you have the option of a fuel cell range extender. Suddenly it's cheap to buy, perfect for town and if you want the safety of long range then you tick a £2000-3000 option box, which is way cheaper than a huge battery. One design, one battery so cheaper to build.

 

Sure hydrogen might start blue, but with the cost of oil it will move to green pretty quick, especially with the correct taxation of blue vs green. 

Baby steps in the right direction is better than no action.

 

People are not obsessed as such, they're worried.

I admit I've been wanting a hydrogen Fuel Cell car for years, but then it's due to the fact I don't want to tow half a tonne of batteries when I don't need them.

 

In fact if they can design a car where the range extender can be added/removed as needed as a module, I can think of a very profitable holiday business

 

 

  

2 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Some in Cities can do without cars, actually the majority do.

Location location location gives the opportunity to use public transport and maybe even cheap public transport.

 

People get a call that there is a family emergency and can they get a shift on and they think,

'crap i have a EV with crap range and charging speed' but not to worry i am a city dweller.

 

People might often head off and do 80 miles and even a bit more then want home.

They certainly do in Scotland where the nearest cities are apart is about 55 miles with Glasgow & Edinburgh and if you want to head to Perth or on to Inverness or Aberdeen or further then charging is an issue. 

 

Public transport barely exists here and so that's why range matters. Visiting the family would require a top up somewhere even in a 300 mile (WLTP) range car.

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

As long as the hydrogen isn't used as sole power source for those fuel-cell hybrid cars, I'm all for it. It's good we are starting with EV's so that people's mindset will change from "fill up every week" to "always be charging" before hydrogen are introduced. No matter the source of hydrogen, it is just too wasteful.

 

On family emergencies. My retired parents live about 80% charge for a return journey for our short range EV in coldest winter days. So as long as we maintain 50% charge level on the short range EV, we can get to them at moment's notice. We'll have a long range EV that can recharge quickly at a mid-way point between their place and ours (Tesla superchargers South Mimms, pop in for 5min will be enough to cover a return trip or 2)

 

That is why rapid charging is important no matter vehicle type. Although we can get to them, we'll need a top up to get home. Without rapid charging, the city car is pretty useless and must maintain high SoC. With rapid charging, after handling any emergency, a 30min stop in the short range EV will allow it to get home no problem.

Hydrogen used as the sole power source might not bother a Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire driver that treats their car like some do an EV City car.

 

 

 

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

As long as the hydrogen isn't used as sole power source for those fuel-cell hybrid cars, I'm all for it. It's good we are starting with EV's so that people's mindset will change from "fill up every week" to "always be charging" before hydrogen are introduced. No matter the source of hydrogen, it is just too wasteful.

 

On family emergencies. My retired parents live about 80% charge for a return journey for our short range EV in coldest winter days. So as long as we maintain 50% charge level on the short range EV, we can get to them at moment's notice. We'll have a long range EV that can recharge quickly at a mid-way point between their place and ours (Tesla superchargers South Mimms, pop in for 5min will be enough to cover a return trip or 2)

 

That is why rapid charging is important no matter vehicle type. Although we can get to them, we'll need a top up to get home. Without rapid charging, the city car is pretty useless and must maintain high SoC. With rapid charging, after handling any emergency, a 30min stop in the short range EV will allow it to get home no problem.

 

2 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Hydrogen used as the sole power source might not bother a Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire driver that treats their car like some do an EV City car.

 

 

Bingo... I've zero problem with hydrogen being used as the primary source when it's generated by excess renewable power. Wind has to be turned off if there is too much, so chucking it into making hydrogen to power local cars is good.

 

HFC cars would have a battery and a charging port for sure.

Question comes how big is the battery. 10kWh = plug in is unlikely to be the main power. 30-50kW yes it's a true BEV with a HFC range extender. 30-50kW will do 90-150 miles.

 

I took the diesel on a long trip and stopped at the rapid chargers and services I'd need (including a few backup options at each point) when I get an EV. Not one had an available charger. One was hogged by a twit in an Etron at 92% trying to get to 100%. The ionity was full and had a queue three cars deep, others had broken chargers. On the way back there was an available charger at a services about half way, but most places were fairly full, albeit without a queue.

 

That 30 minute stop with the queue would have been a minimum an hour and people are just not going to accept that with the chance of getting stranded.

Add to that slow chargers/broken chargers.

 

It's a complete lack of infrastructure combined with a long time to refil that's the problem.

 

I'd far rather see a 100% HFC than people stay with ICE.

2 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Bingo... I've zero problem with hydrogen being used as the primary source when it's generated by excess renewable power. Wind has to be turned off if there is too much, so chucking it into making hydrogen to power local cars is good.

Same argument can be made if EV's are always be charging and put on intelligent tariff like Octopus Intelligent. You plug it in every night, the grid smartly charges your car cheaply according to excess rewnewables. No wasted renewables, 80% generation to wheel efficiency.

 

4 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I took the diesel on a long trip and stopped at the rapid chargers and services I'd need (including a few backup options at each point) when I get an EV. Not one had an available charger. One was hogged by a twit in an Etron at 92% trying to get to 100%. The ionity was full and had a queue three cars deep, others had broken chargers. On the way back there was an available charger at a services about half way, but most places were fairly full, albeit without a queue.

 

That 30 minute stop with the queue would have been a minimum an hour and people are just not going to accept that with the chance of getting stranded.

Add to that slow chargers/broken chargers.

 

It's a complete lack of infrastructure combined with a long time to refil that's the problem.

That's why I'm getting a Tesla. 6+ at each location, in-car nav will auto navigate to less busy locations.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/why-is-tesla-seen-as-the-stand-out-charge-provider-when-others-have-similar-numbers-if-chargers.171239/

Solar Canopies, a wind turbine, battery storage and an automated toilet 24/7 at charging hubs should be part of what is required by the UK Government & Local Authority planners.

Good Mobile phone reception would be a bonus at many Hubs in Scotland.

 

I really think there is a bit of an energy crisis coming this winter in the UK and the Government have no planning in place.

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Same argument can be made if EV's are always be charging and put on intelligent tariff like Octopus Intelligent. You plug it in every night, the grid smartly charges your car cheaply according to excess rewnewables. No wasted renewables, 80% generation to wheel efficiency.

Except when there is too much wind it will affect grid stability, so they are forced to brake the turbines or disconnect from the grid.

In those situations making hydrogen is ok, but charging from elsewhere is not.

 

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

That's why I'm getting a Tesla. 6+ at each location, in-car nav will auto navigate to less busy locations.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/why-is-tesla-seen-as-the-stand-out-charge-provider-when-others-have-similar-numbers-if-chargers.171239/

 

And that's fine, but since they've just got another $3k more expensive in the US, I can't imagine most people can afford one.

 

  

1 minute ago, roottoot said:

I really think there is a bit of an energy crisis coming this winter in the UK and the Government have no planning in place.

 

It's why we are kicking our solar installer and desperate to get the system installed after all the delays.

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

What do folk without driveways or somewhere sensible to home charge their BEVs do?

Also what will be cheaper? Adequate charge point infrastructure (across the country not just cities) or adapting current filling stations to retail hydrogen?

Thoughts?

You need a mix, but I really can not understand why there are not tax incentives such that a petrol station pays X %  business rates tax, but if said petrol station sells hydrogen (and the pump is working) then they pay X-Y% tax.

 

Watch the petrol stations fall over themselves to reduce their business taxes by getting a single pump installed.

 

In London they are getting all the EV chargers, but they have the tube, buses and all sorts of public transport.

They just got crossrail 1 and are getting 2, which apparantly benifit the whole country, clearly unlike running HS2 from Manchester and Leeds to Brum first and linking Manchester to Leeds via other major towns on a decent service. 

 

Perhaps it's time some of the political types looked to the regions and got their heads out of London London London.

 

 

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

@Gmac983

http://chargeplacescotland.org

 

I charge a few hours a week free at Tesco to keep the battery topped up then i charge Free in Perthshire as i come back home to Angus where the council charge to charge.

I get free electric down the west coast and have to pay going north of Angus or down the East coast going south.

(so far managing to not pay too often as there are still a few free chargers around Fife.)

 

30,000 miles covered for less that £150 in 2 years.  

 

Green Hydrogen should become plentiful around Nigg and other coastal areas of Scotland but if there are filling stations only time will tell. 

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by roottoot