Clutch straight to floor and no brake fluid leak?

[SirFeatherstone]

Hi folks, just after a bit of advice.

 

I noticed that my clutch had started to have a lot of play from the top to about half way down. Took the car to a garage who said I needed a new master cylinder. So I ordered a new master cylinder and took it to my usual mechanic to fit.

 

He told me that he just topped up the brake fluid and bled the system and everything was working as it should. He also said there was no obvious signs of a leak.

 

I am still slightly nervous about this as I did not expect the brake fluid level to drop so quickly? Have you heard of anyting like this before? Any opinions would be great.

 

Thanks,

Andy

Just for more info it is a 2012 1.6 TDI.

[J.R.]

You did not report a falling brake fluid reservoir level or more importantly the circumstances during which it occurred.

 

I have a lot of experience on this topic but cannot give an opinion in the absence of relevant information.

[SirFeatherstone]

12 minutes ago, J.R. said:

You did not report a falling brake fluid reservoir level or more importantly the circumstances during which it occurred.

 

I have a lot of experience on this topic but cannot give an opinion in the absence of relevant information.

 

Sorry, I started to notice the clutch going closer and closer to the floot just this past week as we got some really cold weather.

 

I was finding it very hard to get into gear because I could not engage the clutch enough to let me put it in gear. I could just about get the car going by pumping the clutch pedal a few times until I got it into gear but did not want to try and force it at the fear of wrecking it.

 

I never noticed the brake fluid level dropping until my mechanic looked at it last night.

[Guest]

Leaky slave cylinder perhaps.

[SirFeatherstone]

28 minutes ago, MicMac said:

Leaky slave cylinder perhaps.

 

I thought it might have been the slave cylinder but the mechanic said it was bone dry.  My mechanic bled the system, topped up brake fluid and checked for leaks and could not find any. I am at a loss to what it could be.

[Guest]

IIRC access to the slave cylinder is a gearbox out job on your model, is your mechanic taking the easy option of master cylinder without a proper investigation?

Edited 23 January, 2023 by MicMac

[SirFeatherstone]

33 minutes ago, MicMac said:

IIRC access to the slave cylinder is a gearbox out job on your model, is your mechanic taking the easy option of master cylinder without a proper investigation?

 

I had the car at a local garage because it was a Saturday and they got the car up on a ramp and looked underneath the engine bay and looked uner some overs on the bottom. Told me that the slave cylinder was dry.

 

They never charged me a penny for looking at it tbf and did say it would be a master cylinder.

 

This is when I got the master cylinder and took it to my usual mechanic who said that it did not need replaced and was fine once the brake fluid was topped up and the system was bled.

 

Do you think I should take it back and ask to get a proper look at the slave cylinder to be absolutely sure?

[Guest]

I'm not familiar with your engine but obviously you have a fluid leak somewhere in the clutch line that's causing improper actuation.

 

If 2 mechanics cannot rectify the problem, they aren't worth paying.

 

It's possible you have a leaky slave cylinder that hasn't leaked enough (yet) to show via the bell housing drain hole... I don't know.

 

Certainly if the clutch flexi hose was clamped you could test for a firm pedal and that would eliminate the master cylinder as being faulty.

[KenONeill]

38 minutes ago, SirFeatherstone said:

Told me that the slave cylinder was dry.

How they could tell that when the slave cylinder is inside the bell-housing and not visible...

[SirFeatherstone]

Thanks for the information guys. Going to take it to another mechanic over the next week or two and see if I can get a bit further. Appreciate the help!

[J.R.]

 

5 hours ago, MicMac said:

obviously you have a fluid leak somewhere in the clutch line that's causing improper actuation.

At the moment it is not obvious at all that there is a leak and the OP still has not properly described the circumstances when the fluid level has dropped.

 

I am having to guess and read between the lines in the absence of coherent information but I suspect if you reverse what the mechanic is reported as having done "He told me that he just topped up the brake fluid and bled the system and everything was working as it should. He also said there was no obvious signs of a leak" into something more plausible ergo:

 

"He replaced the cylinder then bled the system and topped up the brake fluid (the order in which the job would have been done) then there is no suggestion of a fluid leak (which he says), he will have replaced the fluid lost while bleeding.

 

Maybe the OP is confused by the mechanics report, I am still confused as to why he says "I am still slightly nervous about this as I did not expect the brake fluid level to drop so quickly"

 

Could it be that the second mechanic did not fit the cylinder that the OP purchased, is that what the OP was actually trying to say?

[J.R.]

I can help you with this, I have a wealth of knowledge and hands on experience with this exact problem that I wish I did not as it took up so much of my time, but I do need coherent information in order to be able to help, I do not want to send you down the wrong route.

 

Please explain exactly what work has been done, was the cylinder replaced and at what point do you consider that the fluid level dropped "so quickly" in your words, topping up does not imply that the level has dropped through a leak, it will go down as the brake pads wear, "topping up" can just be parlance for checking or would be a necessary thing after bleeding.

[SirFeatherstone]

13 hours ago, J.R. said:

I can help you with this, I have a wealth of knowledge and hands on experience with this exact problem that I wish I did not as it took up so much of my time, but I do need coherent information in order to be able to help, I do not want to send you down the wrong route.

 

Please explain exactly what work has been done, was the cylinder replaced and at what point do you consider that the fluid level dropped "so quickly" in your words, topping up does not imply that the level has dropped through a leak, it will go down as the brake pads wear, "topping up" can just be parlance for checking or would be a necessary thing after bleeding.

 

Sorry, I am not very knowledgeable on the matter so have clearly left out important details or not explained myself as I should have. I will run through everything now and try and explain my situation better.

 

So, a couple of weeks ago I noticed that my clutch pedal was fairly 'loose' at the top, i.e. I would press it down 2-3 inches before feeling any pressre. I did not really think this was an issue as I was able to find gears and the car drove perfectly fine.

 

Then, about a week ago, the clutch had been 'loose' right down to the floow and would sometimes stick, again I was able to find gears and drive the car without issue, but I obviously knew something was wrong and the situation was getting worse.

 

On Saturday past, I was really struggling to get into gear and it was a Saturday so there was not many garages open that could help me. I ended up finding one that got the car up on a ramp and looked at something underneath the engine (that general area anyway, it looked like he had to unscrew a bolt to pull down a cover to see what he needed to see). The mechanic told me that the issue was the master cylinder because the slave cylinder was bone dry.

 

I took this advice, purchased a master cylinder and took it to my mechanic on Sunday evening. He looked at the car for about an hour and told me that he did NOT need to replace the master cylinder, and that the car was back to normal after bleeding the system and topping up the brake fluid. I asked if the brake fluid had drained rapidlt because the issue only seemed to crop up in the sapce of a week or two. He said it was below the part of the reservoir where there is a pipe/hose/tunnel that the brake fluid would exit through to go around the system. Sorry I couldn't think of the right word to describe that bit, but it is obviously the part where the brake fluid leaves the reservoir to go around the system.

 

He only asked for an hours labour and I was able to return the master cylinder and get my money back. I still feel a very slight bit of play at the top of the clutch butt this is only for about an inch then everything feels as it should.

 

I was very nervous as I was told a couple of different things from a couple of different mechanics and I just don't know what to believe.

 

I messaged the mechanic that told me the master cylinder did not need replaced and asked if the bit of play at the top of the clutch is normal and he said it is and it is maybe some play from the plastic components.

 

I am just not 100% sure if this is definitely fixed and thought I would ask on here as you guys are the experts.

 

Sorry for not being able to articulate this as best as I could but I have tried my best here. Hopefully you can help.

 

2012 Octavia

1.6 TDI with around 115k miles

 

 

[J.R.]

Thats great thanks, I will respond in detail when I return later, I have to go out to work now.

[SirFeatherstone]

36 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Thats great thanks, I will respond in detail when I return later, I have to go out to work now.

 

Thanks JR, appreciate you

[J.R.]

Sorry for the delay, life got in the way!

 

Leave it a couple of weeks and if the pedal still feels good then you have dodged a bullet.

 

A few observations for information.

 

Air bled from the bleed nipple above the slave cylinder (on the clutch bleed block) will not have entered from a faulty master cylinder, air bubbles will not sink.

 

There is a void beneath the bleed nipple whose purpose is to trap any air entering the system from the concentric slave cylinder preventing it from rising up and through the master cylinder.

 

Air can be drawn in from the O ring joint between the body of the concentric cylinder and the inlet pipe, its one item but made in two pieces in later vehicles, both plastic, engine vibration makes the bleed block shake back and forth wearing away at what should be a static joint, for some reason this air can enter without any fluid loss, I have witnessed this with my own eyes.

 

If your pedal starts sinking and sticking again, bleeding once more will bring some temporary relief but the only real answer is to remove the gearbox and replace the cylinder.

 

You could change the master cylinder, they can fail with similar symptoms but will not pass air further down the system, its a much easier and cheaper job so if a garage suggests it as a first attempt then you have very little to lose by trying it first, indeed if you subsequently have to replace the concentric slave cylinder you will have an all new system.

 

You will have to budget for a replacement clutch and dual mass flywheel as it would be false economy to not replace them at the same time.

 

Good luck, I lived with the problem for 6 months and at the end was bleeding the clutch by the side of the road several times on a 25 mile journey, after replacing the cylinder (I sourced a new old stock original aluminium one piece type for extra security) the problem had gone but my anxiety remained, for a full 6 months I was still anxious on pulling off an autoroute to the roundabout or toll booth as to whether I would still have a clutch to move off again or would I have to bleed it on the spot, I used to scan for points to pull off the road at each stop or junction.

 

That anxiety has now gone but if one day the clutch pedal feels slightly stiffer or easier as it will with varying temperatures I become momentarily concerned.

[SirFeatherstone]

On 25/01/2023 at 22:08, J.R. said:

Sorry for the delay, life got in the way!

 

Leave it a couple of weeks and if the pedal still feels good then you have dodged a bullet.

 

A few observations for information.

 

Air bled from the bleed nipple above the slave cylinder (on the clutch bleed block) will not have entered from a faulty master cylinder, air bubbles will not sink.

 

There is a void beneath the bleed nipple whose purpose is to trap any air entering the system from the concentric slave cylinder preventing it from rising up and through the master cylinder.

 

Air can be drawn in from the O ring joint between the body of the concentric cylinder and the inlet pipe, its one item but made in two pieces in later vehicles, both plastic, engine vibration makes the bleed block shake back and forth wearing away at what should be a static joint, for some reason this air can enter without any fluid loss, I have witnessed this with my own eyes.

 

If your pedal starts sinking and sticking again, bleeding once more will bring some temporary relief but the only real answer is to remove the gearbox and replace the cylinder.

 

You could change the master cylinder, they can fail with similar symptoms but will not pass air further down the system, its a much easier and cheaper job so if a garage suggests it as a first attempt then you have very little to lose by trying it first, indeed if you subsequently have to replace the concentric slave cylinder you will have an all new system.

 

You will have to budget for a replacement clutch and dual mass flywheel as it would be false economy to not replace them at the same time.

 

Good luck, I lived with the problem for 6 months and at the end was bleeding the clutch by the side of the road several times on a 25 mile journey, after replacing the cylinder (I sourced a new old stock original aluminium one piece type for extra security) the problem had gone but my anxiety remained, for a full 6 months I was still anxious on pulling off an autoroute to the roundabout or toll booth as to whether I would still have a clutch to move off again or would I have to bleed it on the spot, I used to scan for points to pull off the road at each stop or junction.

 

That anxiety has now gone but if one day the clutch pedal feels slightly stiffer or easier as it will with varying temperatures I become momentarily concerned.

 

Sorry JR, completely missed the notification for your very good in depth response.

 

The good news is the pedal has felt pretty good for the past few weeks and does not seem to be getting worse so far. I have purchased a master cylinder and slave cylinder to have just in case it gets worse again but hopefully it is a bullet dodged!