I just had a NIP delivered for doing 58mph through 50mph roadworks on the M20. Not 100% convinced this was correct, I logged onto the Police website to get the full details and images from the cameras. The images ( both entry & exit ) seem to show my car outside of the roadworks area, ie on open 3 lanes + hardshoulder rather than within the restricted 2 lane section of roadworks.

Surely the average speed camera image 1 (entry ) should be a picture of my car when it passes the first monitoring camera and image 2 ( exit ) should show a picture of my car when passing the second monitoring camera. 

 

Hope that makes sense.

Edited 14 February, 20233 yr by Gammyleg
Spelling

Suppose is depends where you passed the 50mph sign/gantry.

 

Also if you're going to speed in an average speed camera zone, remember to change lanes in between the cameras. 😉

1 hour ago, Gammyleg said:

Hope that makes sense.

Which part of "average greed scamera" is confusing you? I really hope it's not the "average", (actually mean) which is taken by reading the time (in decimal hours) when you pass the exit camera, subtracting the time when you pass the entry camera, and dividing by the distance between the 2, to give your mean speed between them.

3 minutes ago, StevesTruck said:

Also if you're going to speed in an average speed camera zone, remember to change lanes in between the cameras.

Once was true, but is now an urban leg end due to a change in the law.

My query relates to the images shown on the NIP. Both the entry & exit images show my car on what appears to be a fully open 3 lane + hard shoulder carriageway. The solid white line between the hard shoulder & lane 1 is clearly visible and my car is travelling in lane 1.

 

The 3no average speed cameras are situated within the roadworks section. This section of carriageway has a continuous concrete barrier sitting on the hatched lines between lane 1 & lane 2, with live traffic using lanes 2 & 3, therefore none of the images shown on the NIP were taken within the roadworks section. Once out of the roadworks, the national speed limit returns once more.

 

After exiting the roadworks section there are a further 3no average speed cameras which were operational when the roadworks extended the full distance between junctions, however the roadworks section was shortened about 6 weeks ago and these remaining cameras are now marked/signed as being NOT IN USE. I believe a combination of two of these redundant cameras were used to create the images on the NIP.

 

So my question is, should the images on the NIP show the exact camera images taken as part of the average speed calculation, or can the Police just post a couple of random pictures of my car on a different section of motorway just to prove I was in the vicinity at about that time?

 

I'm waiting a few more days before I query this with the Police in the hope that they've posted the wrong photos and would have to resubmit the correct ones. This would take them past their 14d time limit from the time of the offence to the issue the NIP.     

 

 

I'd have thought if you can demonstrate that the photo's were taken outside of the average speed measuring area, then you have a question to be answered, as you could've been doing 70mph (presumably) at these points, which would increase your 'average' speed if the average speed zone is a shorter distance.  Having said that I can't help but feel I'm missing something.

 

I'd be taking a photo of the 'Not in use' cameras if it were me.

 

Gaz

 

The Elephant in the room question which you steered clear of in your posting is "Are you saying that you did not exceed the authorised maximum speed during the section in question?"

 

I do not understand your talk of the right and wrong photos, they are for identification purposes not evidencial, they are to jog your memory in case you were convinced you (or your car) were not there or in case your number plates have been cloned.

 

You have recieved a Notice of Intended Prosecution, you are being invited to admit to the offence to avoid a court case and to accept a lower fine than the court would impose.

 

If you did not exceed the limit then the NIP tells you what to do to challenge it, in my country you have to pay anyway and hope to win and get the extortion money refunded, if you dont the penalty imposed is much higher.

 

I would speculate that the evidence presented in court would not be those photos, it may have no photographic element at all, it could just be a print-out of the times and locations the number plate was recorded and the calculated average speed, I see no legal reason why the photograph or photographs should have to be taken at the same locations unless you drive an Aston Martin DB5.

27 minutes ago, Gaz said:

you could've been doing 70mph (presumably) at these points,

My point exactly

 

28 minutes ago, Gaz said:

Having said that I can't help but feel I'm missing something

Me too

Often the cameras are located just outside the speed restricted area not within so that could explain the pictures.  In addition the restrictions usually extend some way past the lane closures and well into the normal lane arrangements so are you sure that is not the case?

 

However each picture should have the camera reference on it which should show which camera was used for the calc. And you should be able to ask for a cross check of those against the Not in use ones

22 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Are you saying that you did not exceed the authorised maximum speed during the section in question?"

I am unsure whether I did or didn't. How am I able challenge this charge if the information supplied by the Police does not clearly show to the location of the alleged incident.

 

It's like them posting a picture of a broken window alongside a picture of a bloke standing 20 yards away holding a hammer. Doesn't mean he broke the window just that he was in the area at the time.

 

I'm happy to take the rap for this if I were given access to the relevant evidence to show it is correct, up to now this has not been forthcoming. All I've got is a statement saying I was driving @ 58mph and here is a picture of your car somewhere close to where that allegedly happened.

Someone i know personally and i am currently sitting with... goes through the 23 miles on the A9 Average Speed Cameras at 74 mph ish,  as others are doing and is often passed by others going faster, 

much the same as the same on other average camera routes where locals are a few mph above the max speed limit, be that 50 mph, 60 mph etc, but these are permanent cameras.

 

At road works they would never do that, and where there are road works on Motorways or Dual Carriageways with overhead cameras and variable speeds that can be posted there can be portable cameras placed at the lane closures.

 

There are NIP's and actual fines that get issued in Scotland that then get over turned because the signage was wrong, or the Speed restrictions were wrongly posted in the press.

The thing is that the drivers were still over the speed at the place that the work was being done, if the Reduced Speed signs were showing or lanes were closed even if no workers were about. 

Edited 15 February, 20233 yr by toot

Occam's razor says 'it's a fair cop'.

4 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Often the cameras are located just outside the speed restricted area

There are 3 cameras within the roadworks area. One at the very start, one about 3 miles further along and the final one about 1 mile before the end. 

 

6 minutes ago, skomaz said:

In addition the restrictions usually extend some way past the lane closures and well into the normal lane arrangements so are you sure that is not the case?

Definitely. The 'National Speed Limit Applies' signage is no more than 100 yards past the end of the roadworks section. The next ( redundant ) speed camera is about 2 miles further along from that.

 

 

25 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

All I want is a photo of my car at the start of the alleged speeding offence and one at the end of it. Shouldn't be too hard to provide surely.

 

The two photos that they have provided are not within the speed restricted zone, one is marked 'Entry' and one is marked 'Exit' which is clearly NOT THE CASE!!

 

 

1 hour ago, Gammyleg said:

'm happy to take the rap for this if I were given access to the relevant evidence to show it is correct, up to now this has not been forthcoming. All I've got is a statement saying I was driving @ 58mph and here is a picture of your car somewhere close to where that allegedly happened.

 

You are not entitled to  evidence at this stage, you have been invited to admit to an alleged offence, if you believe that you were not speeding then challenge it and in time their evidence or lack thereof will be revealed in court.

 

If a serving Police officer on his day off or a member of the public were to report you for dangerous driving you would be invited to the Police station to give a statement, you would not be given access to evidence, there would only be a verbal statement.

 

You have two choices, if you are sure of yourself then challenge it, they don't have to prove to you that you did it, only to the court if you challenge the NIP, you may have access to that before the court date in order to give you the opportunity to change your plea, I don't know how these things work but it would make sense to free up court time.

1 hour ago, Gammyleg said:

All I want is a photo of my car at the start of the alleged speeding offence and one at the end of it. Shouldn't be too hard to provide surely.

 

The two photos that they have provided are not within the speed restricted zone, one is marked 'Entry' and one is marked 'Exit' which is clearly NOT THE CASE!!

 

 

 

Challenge the NIP then and ask for furthe evidence and clarification.

3 hours ago, Gammyleg said:

All I want is a photo of my car at the start of the alleged speeding offence and one at the end of it. Shouldn't be too hard to provide surely.

 

The two photos that they have provided are not within the speed restricted zone, one is marked 'Entry' and one is marked 'Exit' which is clearly NOT THE CASE!!

How far were you outside of the speed restricted zone at the 'Exit' photo? Is it possible to have kept within the 50 zone and accelerated 'immediately' to 70 at the end of the zone and achieve an average of 58?

8 hours ago, Gammyleg said:

Once out of the roadworks, the national speed limit returns once more.

 

8 hours ago, Gammyleg said:

the roadworks section was shortened about 6 weeks ago and these remaining cameras are now marked/signed as being NOT IN USE.

 

Are you certain that the controlled area does not extend beyond the roadworks?

 

The only way to be sure would be to go and take photographs of the signage.

 

Did the images you viewed have time stamps & do you know the distance between them?

 

I can't say without knowing the times & distances but its likely that if your average speed between the two cameras was 58mph then you could not have been doing less than 50mph within the controlled section unless you exceeded 70mph outside of it.

 

The most plausible explanation is that you are incorrect in your belief of the limits of the controlled zone, reduce speed limits often apply before the roadworks and lans closures start and may continue afterwards.

 

As Skomaz has said you will need to challenge the NIP if you are confident you did not exceed the 50mph within the controlled section.

 

Is there a margin allowed in the UK and is it expressed in the same way as it is in France ie 58 mph actually means 64mph recorded but dropped to 58 for the NIP?

Well Well Well. This was waiting for me when I got home. Make of it what you will.🤣

 

 

 

I 

1 hour ago, Gammyleg said:

Well Well Well. This was waiting for me when I got home. Make of it what you will.🤣/cdn-cgi/mirage/04f80739a5528ffd8628a42d790c87c4cf2eced509637a432e6220828ad565f5/1280/https://www.briskoda.net/forums/uploads/monthly_2023_02/99993609_KentPolice.thumb.jpg.fbeea95ecf9611b47c47e141c6a74ef7.jpg

 

 

 

I 

 

That's a result then...   Sounds like they forgot to change the cameras to reflect the changes in restrictions

Where it states "incomplete" I see WRONG.

Well done, was it out of the blue or had you requested info/clarification from them or contested it?

I would write back and ask them to reconsider their choice of words, they cannot speak of an offence being committed until either you have admitted to one or the courts have found you guilty of one.

 

They cannot cancel an offence regardless of whether one was committed or not, they can cancel an NIP.

 

"obvious inconvenience" infers that you have contacted them on this matter, if not then that is once again bad wording.

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

had you requested info/clarification from them or contested it?

 

Neither, although that would have been my next course of action.

19 minutes ago, J.R. said:

write back and ask them to reconsider their choice of words

 

Having spent the last few days trying to convince myself ( and others ) as to the inconsistencies in the 'evidence' on offer, I'd rather just draw a line under the whole episode and move on.

 

I suspect my letter was only one of many ( 00's or 000's ) they have had to send out regarding this matter..   

My theory of what happened is that someone inadvertently switched on some or all of the redundant cameras which were still set to record speeds in excess of what had previously been the prescribed 50mph.

 

Presumably this automatically generated the NIP process, but I guess at some point not long thereafter someone noticed that rather than the usual 2 or 3 reprobates per hour caught going too fast, suddenly that number jumped to 1000+, at which point the binge watching of box sets was put on hold and some poor sap was forced to leave home and go into the office to sort it out.

Edited 15 February, 20233 yr by Gammyleg
Because I can.