Gay sheep rights?

[RobClubley]

Surely complaining about this as homophobic is going a bit far?

Former Wimbledon champion Martina Navratilova has come out in favour of the rights of homosexual sheep in a burgeoning row over tests carried out by two US universities aimed at "curing" ovine friends of Dorothy.

According to The Times, researchers at Oregon State University in the city of Corvallis and at the Oregon Health and Science University in Portland were able to "pinpoint the mechanisms influencing the desires of 'male-oriented' rams by studying their brains".

Specifically, they cut open the offending sheeps' skulls, attached electonic sensors to their grey matter and monitored them while "varying the hormone levels, mainly by injecting hormones into the brain". They reported "considerable success" in getting previously gay rams to consider a bit of boy-on-girl.

The purpose behind these experiments is to "improve the productivity of herds" since "approximately one ram in 10 prefers to mount other rams rather than mate with ewes". The implications are far more sinister, opponents claim, since the acquired knowledge could in the future be used to "cure" human homosexuality, or may offer the prospect that "pregnant women could one day be offered a [hormone] treatment to reduce or eliminate the chance that their offspring will be homosexual".

Ms Navratilova weighed in with: "How can it be that in the year 2006 a major university would host such homophobic and cruel experiments?"

UK gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell declared: "These experiments echo Nazi research in the early 1940s which aimed at eradicating homosexuality. They stink of eugenics. There is a danger that extreme homophobic regimes may try to use these experimental results to change the orientation of gay people."

Udo Schuklenk, Professor of Bioethics at Glasgow Caledonian University, who has "written to the researchers pressing them to stop", added: "I don't believe the motives of the study are homophobic, but their work brings the terrible possibility of exploitation by homophobic societies. Imagine this technology in the hands of Iran, for example. It is typical of the US to ignore the global context in which this is taking place."

Professor Charles Roselli, the Health and Science University biologist heading the research programme, defended his work with: "In general, sexuality has been under-studied because of political concerns. People don't want science looking into what determines sexuality."

Michael Bailey, a neurology professor at Northwestern University near Chicago, risked the wrath of the gay community by stating: "Allowing parents to select their children’s sexual orientation would further a parent's freedom to raise the sort of children they want to raise."

As for the unfortunate gay rams subjected to the research teams' uninvited attentions, it remained for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to slam their sufferings as "a needless slaughter of animals, an affront to human dignity and a colossal waste of precious research funds". ®

Source:

Scientists look to straighten homosexual sheep | The Register

[LJ_Matt]

:hbomb: Worms, Can, Mess all over the floor.....................

[RobClubley]

Probably

[MrBump]

I'll never again be able to say to someone "that jumpers a bit :gay: "! Not with a straight face anyway (nae pun intended)

[heresmo]

Hmm... I suppose there are lots of things here. Like frontal lobotomy started in the 1920's (I think); I suppose we have MRI's which show very much more (after research as to which parts of our brains respond). I suppose cutting heads open is not that far removed from attaching electrodes (ect) and there is also a stat (don't ask me for a reference) that 1 in 7 men have "engaged" shall we say - dunno about the stats for women or sheep though. Oh well.

Regards

Mo

[Chris GB]

Bit of a strange context to be doing research of this nature IMO. I thought you only needed a limited number of rams to service a large number of ewes, so cannot see a shortage of hetero rams in real life myself.

I suppose the real issue it that there are people who consider being gay an illness or condition to be cured. This research does rather lend itself to adoption by homophobic societys.

Personally, I think that although scientific curiosity is a good thing, the research is not of any importance and certainly does not justify animal experimentation. Equally, the pretext for this research seems false. This is if nothing else a waste of good lab resources. The socio - political implications are serious. Many would say, well who cares? Just wait until the power that be define your character as a condition to be cured! Maybe they will be working on a cure for risk enjoyment next. Save legislating against performance cars.

Chris

[RobClubley]

Well said!

Also, knowing how farmers tend to deal with such issues I'd expect the gay rams to end up as lamb chops anyway, so wouldn't need to be "cured"

[TKW]

This is a story that only someone from NZ could bring to our attention

Anyway, how're you doing Rob? (If that's not taking things o/t)

[JPreston]

Bit of a strange context to be doing research of this nature IMO. I thought you only needed a limited number of rams to service a large number of ewes, so cannot see a shortage of hetero rams in real life myself.

I suppose the real issue it that there are people who consider being gay an illness or condition to be cured....

Ah but if you own 20 ewes and buy only one ram but happen to draw the short straw, then no-one is happy. Least of all the ram.

On the subject of curing an illness or otherwise, surely if you cut open a skull, implant electrodes and inject hormones directly into the brain you could probably induce all kinds of new behaviour - but this isn't saying that any of them are necessarily more valid.

Odd that the campaigners are up in arms about it though - hasn't Elton John said he will devote his life to furthering gay rights now? All very well but I'd suggest there are more pressing causes for a multi-multi-multi-millionaire anthropologist to devote his attention on, in a world where 1000s of children die daily from lack of clean water etc.

[RobClubley]

This is a story that only someone from NZ could bring to our attention

Anyway, how're you doing Rob? (If that's not taking things o/t)

Hehe, good point!

We're doing well thanks

Been over here for 14 months now and all is good. We've had a bit of a mad time to say the least with visits from friends and relatives, and far too many holidays (if that's possible!)

Next year will be a much quieter one - time to settle down and sort out the house, and SWMBO is (hopefully) starting at uni this month to do a teacher training course.

Back on topic (sort of)

Apparently the NZ sheep population has reduced over recent years to only about 45 million. Wonder how many of them are gay?

[pixi]

I suppose cutting heads open is not that far removed from attaching electrodes (ect)

Regards

Mo

You couldn't get much further removed then relating these two. ECT is a worthwhile treatment in order to bring about positive results. Cutting open the head of a bleeding sheep to try and study or cure homosexuality is verging on the ridiculous and excuse any racism etc, but so bloody american.

[heresmo]

Pixi, ect has been around for longer than I'd care to remember at least 40 years. It had drawbacks then (loss of memory, disorientation, depression etc, not to mention the trauma of actually going through it) and I'm amazed that you seem to be standing behind it given your vocation (sorry, just what I think).

As far as I am concerned, people are what and who they are, full stop - fine by me. It won't stop research going on whether approved or behind closed doors. Nowt much I can do about that though.

Mo

[pixi]

Pixi, ect has been around for longer than I'd care to remember at least 40 years. It had drawbacks then (loss of memory, disorientation, depression etc, not to mention the trauma of actually going through it) and I'm amazed that you seem to be standing behind it given your vocation (sorry, just what I think).

Mo

No need for apologies Mo, I am basing my opinion on the results I see from the patients that receive it in our ECT clinic at work. It's not a decision that's taken lightly and it is has come a very long way from what has been portrayed in films and in the media.

[RobClubley]

Imagine if it all went wrong - a depressed gay sheep that couldn't walk straight (excuse the pun) with a memory like a goldfish.

Poor thing.

[heresmo]

No need for apologies Mo, I am basing my opinion on the results I see from the patients that receive it in our ECT clinic at work. It's not a decision that's taken lightly and it is has come a very long way from what has been portrayed in films and in the media.

Might I ask how it has come a "very long way since..."? What does that mean - i.e. that makes it different now? My post was based on someone's personal experience and later information - which granted is from the telly. Please advise information I'm missing.

Thank you

Mo

[Chris GB]

Might I ask how it has come a "very long way since..."? What does that mean - i.e. that makes it different now? My post was based on someone's personal experience and later information - which granted is from the telly. Please advise information I'm missing.

Thank you

Mo

Hi Mo

A tale of ect. A work colleague a few years ago was slowly getting more and more pessimistic, withdrawn and detatched. His social life was gone and he was obviously suffering. The root of his suffering turned out to be his acutely depressed wife, who had got to the point of wanting to take her life. Fortunately, she spoke about it rather than tried to do it (being a nurse one would imagine she would have succeeded). After various drug and councelling regimes, she was no better at all, so elected to be committed for her own safety.

While committed, she took the decision to undergo ect. Bottom line is that she is now absolutely OK over the last 12 years or more. No recurrence of the depression (in itself unusual) and no negative effects. It would appear that the treatments hae been refined to match the theraputic application of the shock to the body much better, thus avoiding many of the pitfalls of the earlier treatments where the profession were still feeling their way. Of course it is not without its possible side effects, but when somebody is that depressed that they want to not be alive and are ceasing to function, surely it is worth a go? I watched Stephen Fry's programmes on depression and can understand how some would not want to be rid of their illness, it for them being part of what makes them the way they are, but I reckon there are plenty who would be cured tomorrow for ever if they could be.

I think that ect is so associated with mental illness that it somehow carries the the same stigma borne of lack of understanding.

Chris

[heresmo]

Hi Mo

A tale of ect. A work colleague a few years ago was slowly getting more and more pessimistic, withdrawn and detatched. His social life was gone and he was obviously suffering. The root of his suffering turned out to be his acutely depressed wife, who had got to the point of wanting to take her life. Fortunately, she spoke about it rather than tried to do it (being a nurse one would imagine she would have succeeded). After various drug and councelling regimes, she was no better at all, so elected to be committed for her own safety.

While committed, she took the decision to undergo ect. Bottom line is that she is now absolutely OK over the last 12 years or more. No recurrence of the depression (in itself unusual) and no negative effects. It would appear that the treatments hae been refined to match the theraputic application of the shock to the body much better, thus avoiding many of the pitfalls of the earlier treatments where the profession were still feeling their way. Of course it is not without its possible side effects, but when somebody is that depressed that they want to not be alive and are ceasing to function, surely it is worth a go? I watched Stephen Fry's programmes on depression and can understand how some would not want to be rid of their illness, it for them being part of what makes them the way they are, but I reckon there are plenty who would be cured tomorrow for ever if they could be.

I think that ect is so associated with mental illness that it somehow carries the the same stigma borne of lack of understanding.

Chris

A lot to take in. You present a very positive view. I don't know enough.

I think Stephen Fry's programme was re manic depressives or bi-polar as it's now known. That is different methinks.

Re ect and stigma, I guess that's because it's only carried out in "those" hospitals. I'm still not sure I'd put my name down (assuming I have the option) however dotty I am. I guess recipients will know more from their side of things than observers.

Mo

[pixi]

Some patients with severe depression become mute and as Chris has said basically cease to function, including not taking in any food or fluid therefore putting their life in danger. These are your classic cases needing ECT and they can experience what I would call an amazing and relatively quick recovery. You can almost fail to recognise them if you have been on annual leave whilst treatment has been prescribed. All the old footage or reconstructions and the way it's portrayed can seem very frightening indeed. Wired up while someone zaps you etc, or looking like you are having a major fit feeds the outside world of how horrific it must be or indeed how it was years ago. These days you can have it bi lateral or uni lateral depending on individual needs aswell as the controlling of how much of a fit will be brought on. The fits last for a few seconds and people generally don't fit like they have 100,000 volts going through them!

The best evidence for me is seeing the results and hearing patients that have had it reassure others that may have been offered it as a treatment. As for myself? My colleagues and I have discussed whether we would have it if we were in the same situation, I'm pretty sure that I would but that's only because of my experiences. I'm also pretty sure that if I didn't do the job that I do my opinion would be different because I would only have what is portrayed to me via the media to base my decision on.

My God, that is probably the longest post I've written. I really should go to bed and let this thread get back on topic