Marwood's Paintwork Problems (Disaster!)

[VRStu]

I would certainly be taking some advice and considering rejection if it were my car.

If nothing else but to fire a warning shot across the bows and keep your options open.

[motr]

When I arrived he offered to exchange the car 'as a good will gesture' for a new one.

If there is one thing that gets my back up. it's the 'goodwill gesture'. It's not about 'goodwill gestures', it's about replacing something that is basically faulty.

[QuattroGmBh]

Certainly you are absolutely right to be disappointed with that standard of preparation on a new vehicle.

From what I can "see" of the photos, its unlikely that the clearcote is too badly damaged. Clearly the polish that the dealer used to attempt to rectify the issue was maybe a little more aggressive than needed. Certainly a skilled operator with either a rotary or a Random Orbit polisher and the right pads should be able to remove that marring and get it to a pristine condition.

The circular mark on the bonnet appears to be the remanants of adhesive from a sticker or the like. Try some label remover or IPA alcohol and see if it removes it.

Good to see you have the sonus drying towel.. A good step toward keeping it pristine once the marring has been removed.

Have the dealer pay for a professional detail (not valet). They should be able to use a paint thickness gauge to determine any longer term issues.

Good luck.

[Dodgy]

The circular mark on the bonnet appears to be the remanants of adhesive from a sticker or the like. Try some label remover or IPA alcohol and see if it removes it.

Probably good advice, but not in the light of a potential reject case. I'd leave the car well alone until an agreement is reached.

Dave.

[Marwood]

Thank you for all this advice and support.

Honestly it is very touching.

I am off to the dealership later to hand in my documentation (finished it at 1AM this morning!)

Regarding rejection, this is still an option and I will contact all the relevent agencies I need to in any event. However I do want to give a reputable and highly respected dealer the chance to respond to me. In the long run this will be my best course of action, on many levels.

It will be for the dealer to make the next move, I will respond according to the options they offer me.

Will post later on how It goes today.

Cheers,

Paul.

[Marwood]

Ok,

Went to see the dealership after work.

Tom was very good. We sat down quietly and I went through the paperwork and the pictures. He Listened well to what I had to say and thanked me for what I had put together saying, that this would enable him to forward the matter.

I explained my two choices, a PERFECT (and all that implies) sort out of the paintwork or a replacement car. I mentioned rejecting the car a few times, but to be fair to Tom, this isn't for him to say.

The whole experience was fine, professional and helpful. Of course, I was only putting it all in writing and presenting my problems......a little way to go yet!!!

The problem was taken seriously and I am sure the dealer will endevour to help......but then they should, and much will depend on what form that help takes.

Tom, who isn't working tomorrow said he would take the documents home this weekend and read them. Getting back to me Monday or Tuesday next week.

As advised, I got he number of Mark Mitchell's PA so I could arrange to speak to him if needed.

Sorry I forgot to say QuattroGmBh, Yep, that is a Sonus drying towel....nice spot. What information would the 'removed bonnet sticker' have on it, if it is a sticker mark??

Cheers,

Paul.

[fofos]

Personally i have found Mark Mitchell and all the staff at the dealership near Chester to be professional and helpful, they also have they own bodywork shop and they work to Lexus standards as that is one of the brands sold by them.

I had the roof,bonnet and both front wings resprayed through an insurance claim 2 weeks ago and the car looks like its just come out of the showroom.

[QuattroGmBh]

What information would the 'removed bonnet sticker' have on it, if it is a sticker mark??

Could have been absolutely anything.. I wouldnt like to speculate. The edges of the mark seem to be more defined than a buffing pad as suggested would have made.

Sounds like the dealership are treating you fairly and want to get to an amicable resolution.

[Marwood]

Yes they are being fair (well, Tom is at the moment). However so they should be given the circumstances.....possibly much more than 'fair'!

I would expect a professional respray to look that good. But there are resprays and resprays, as anyone who does resprays will tell you.

My last car, a black Golf had a small discussion with my gate post (now widened!). It left some marks on the rear nearside wing. It was sorted by a bloke I have known for years. He and his bother run a small garage near where my parents live. I have seen his work and spent some time watching him in the past. I remember when he was going to sort my Golf asking me if I intended to keep the car or sell it. He was being pragmatic on my behalf, regarding cost, but it shows there are many levels of quality that can be achieved when it comes to respray.

I want my vRS not to look "like'' (simile/similar to) it has just come out of the showroom but to actually be in showroom condition. This isn't an insurance job it is something quite different!

However, it is good to know that this side of the Mitchell dealership is able to satisfy its customers.

I wonder if they worked on my Skoda as they are just a few hundred yards away??? Indeed, Tom checked with that side of the operation regarding the use of rotary buffers on new cars before he talked to me about my original marks.

Are Lexus' standards better than Skoda's? Surley all cars are equal and it is not a case of some being more equal than others.

There are alot of unanswered questions.

Pleased you are happy with the work carried out on your car fofos.

Paul

EDIT: Noticed that I posted this on the 4th of March before I had my vRS. Last 3 Paragraphs.

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/new-octavia/would-you-buy-another-octavia/74037/5/#post855691

Paul

[fofos]

I would expect a professional respray to look that good. But there are resprays and resprays, as anyone who does resprays will tell you.?. That is why i mentioned Lexus standards.

I want my vrs not to look "like" (simile/ simular to)it has just come out of the showroom but to actually be in showroom condition.? In my book that means one and the same thing, but unfortuneately it looks like yours slipped through the net.

Are Lexus standards better than Skodas?. Surely all cars are equal and it is not a case of some being being more equal than others. You answered that question in your last post. (there are many levels of quality that can be achieved when it comes to resprays).

I hope you get the right result.

[Marwood]

Fair comment.

Thanks for you good wishes too fofos.

Thanks also to Ross for his clarification.

Just waiting now for a call.

Paul

[Dodgy]

Fingers crossed! We're rooting for you!

Dave.

[Mike C]

I know this may be a little late but if a rejection of the car is still on the cards, you really need to limit the amount of mileage you do in it and I think this is something that is suggested by Citizens Advice / Consumer advise when purchasing cars.

I had a problem with my old ST which I eventually rejected (it may be a little different as mine was a year old when I picked it up) but I got stung for x number of pence per mile that I had put on the clock since owning it and this apparently was Ford's policy so after 6 months of driving I lost a fair wack (to me anyway) of cash.

[Marwood]

Here's the situation,

Last Friday Tom the Service Manager said he would contact me Monday or Tuesday.

In the meantime I contacted Trading Standards and the CAB to find out my exact position. Not sure I want to post exactly what they told me I could do at the moment, but I will, at some point when it is all sorted. PM me if you want to know and feel it could help you.

Just after 6 on Tuesday Richard, the Sales Manager called me to arrange a time for the car to be looked at. He was very understanding and reassuring.

I Took the car down today, and at the dealership I was introduced to a chap called Morris from 'Roberts Refurbishment' (apparently about 5 mins drive from Mitchell Skoda. Morris had seen my report and the pictures. It was clear the dealership had taken things serriously as they were not going to try and sort it in house. Sadly, it was raining as the three of us stood looking at the nearside of the vRS, so it wasn't possible to see the marks. However, Morris had with him a product called, I think, 'Ultrafine' made by 3M. He applied some to the door pillar to demonstrate it's properties. Apparently the product is "expensive" and ony used by 'the trade'.

Morris was confident that with some work on the car this product/possibly others not named (the word sealant was used a little later), applied in the correct manner would sort the problem out for me, returning the car to its original state. Apparently if used on new paintwork it would bring up a much brighter appearance to the paint than what would normally be found on a showroom condition car.

Clearly I expressed my desire to have the paint perfect and to have some assurances that this was not a quick fix and would stand up to the test of time. Morris was certain that it would last and allow the car to be polished perfectly when I needed to in the future over many years. He did say that anything that moves scratches or marks has to have some 'action' on the paint work however, he reassured me the product was gentle and would not alter the thickness of the paint, well it would measure the same before and after the work, ("probably").

Morris said the original holograms could have occured at any stage. We never established how or when.

Ok, there is a great element of trust in all this. I was sure Morris knew his stuff and he was a nice friendly bloke, who I liked. However, the proof of the pudding and all that..........

I told Richard I reserved the right to come back to him if I wasn't happy. He was fine about this and has arranged a courtesy car for me when the work is done next Tuesday.

With respect to the way the dealer has handled matter so far, I do not think I could have been treated any better and their course of action to remedy the problem, appears to be perfectly satisfactory. At this stage I want to say thank you for their speedy response.

Let's see how it goes.

Does anyone have any views, on Ultrafine or anything else I have mentioned?

Thanks,

Paul.

[Wardy]

I'm glad progress is being made. I'd be interested on exact details of this 3M product, and I think it's important you know exactly the process that will be carried out.

The only 'Ultrafine' 3M products I'm aware of are their certain grades of cutting pads, not a product to applied as such. More, you would use one of these pads to apply something else.

3M products all usually have a four-digit number in their title.

I would also want a 'step-by-step' of what the dealer, or any associated 3rd party, was carrying out. You can then query that with them, for a better understanding, as well as gather other advice, if necessary.

A view can then be made, hopefully before the work is carried out what the effect will be on your paintwork. My slight concern at this stage is that they will get the 'damage' out, but at what risk to the depth of the clearcoat?

Steve

[Marwood]

Wardy,

Had a 'Google', looks like I got the name a little wrong as I didn't get a clear hold of the bottle. When I asked what it was Morris did show me but only briefly. When we were sitting down afterwards in the Sales Manager's office it was covered by a yellow polishing cloth. I feel it would be harsh to say that the cloth's position was deliberate, merely coincidental the fact that Morris messed with it alot and by the end of our chat it made an effective 'tent' for the black plastic bottle. Surley, this is coincidental!?

Anyway, this link provides a guide to perhaps how he intends to use it and some details of what the product is specifically used for.

Ultrafina Process

Really I need to employ (pay!) a detailer with a micrometer and an impartial eye to establish if the clearcoat has been compromised and the thickness of the paint in the damaged areas before I give it to them Monday after work. Would be handy if they had a brilliant reputation in the detailing world and would put it all in writing.

If this how Morris intends to proceed, perhaps I should get a second opinion. On the other hand..........he could be right, (more a hope than a highly informed and experienced judgement on my part!)

Hard for anyone to advise me on the strenght of photos, then again Morris made his judgement based on the photos and what Richard (who's firm are paying Morris) suggested in the meeting they must have had before I got there. Morris knew I was a teacher.

Paul.

[QuattroGmBh]

Anyone professionally restoring or correcting paint defects should have a Paint Thickness Gauge (PTG). Without one, they would have no idea how much clear coat they have to "play with" in order to remove the defect and leave enough clearcoat to prevent future issues. I'm assuming once the paint is perfect, you are going to want to keep it that way. That means polishing and Sealing / waxing and that inevitably removes tiny amounts of clearcoat each time, so you need to be confident that the process hasn't removed an excessive amount of clear.

The simple way to satisfy yourself that no major damage has been done, is for the detailer or restorer to take a series of PTG readings from your vehicle pre and post correction and on another octavia at the dealership. Any Octavia will do since they go through the same paint process regardless of trim level. This is really the only scientific way to provide you with the confidence you desire.

I Imagine the product you saw was some kind of micro diminishing abrasive, which breaks down to a finer polish as it is worked. From the photos, your hologramming and swirls needed an intensive polish as opposed to an aggressive compound. Using the least aggressive polish to remove just the marring of course leaves you with the most clearcoat.

All the best..

[Marwood]

Thanks for that advice QuattrpGmBh,

I think I will have to borrow a PTG and take some readings. I can then question the intended 'fix' with more certainty and make it clear, at the very least, whatever they do they will have to be carefull.

Trading Standards were very clear about my options should I go down the 'repair route'. To have paint depth measurements would be very handy. I will just need to find someone with a PTG, I assume using one is easy enough. Can a PTG be hired for a week and is there a specific type needed? They seem quite costly to buy.

Thanks again,

Paul.

[badgersport]

Have a look on here Detailing World - A world for detailers by detailers. and find a detailer near you who has a ptg.

The only way to remove (as opposed to hide) scratches and marks is to remove paint, you need to be sure they are not removing that much they compromise the long term durability of your car's finish. The only way to do this is to measure the paint thickness on your car after they have finished with it and then walk into the showroom and measure the paint on a few new cars.

You could always buy a PTG on ebay and sell it on later if you think you might need to use it a few times before they have finished, although hiring a professional detailer to take the measurements for you will give you an expert witness should things get messy later.

Good luck, it sounds as if the dealer is trying to be helpful but they aren't going to give you a new car if they think they can get away with yet another polish - regardless of what is best for you.

[Marwood]

Thanks for that suggestion badgersport.

I have registered with the site you recommend. Hopefully someone will be able to come and have a look over the weekend or Monday in work. If things do get messy later on as you say, this would be very valuable.

Paul.

[Tom_vRS]

I'm sure someone from detailing world will lend you a ptg, even if its for beer tokens.

I've been following this interesting thread - even though there is little I can add to it, I can't help but admire both the care you are putting into getting this resolved, and I'm equally impressed with the service from Mitchells.

I'm pretty confident you will get a good resolution to this - and good luck with it.

All the best

[Marwood]

Tom,

That's very nice of you to say.

Paul

[Marwood]

Perhaps I should have just edited my last post but........

Asked one of the Tech teachers at work about a paint depth gauge. He sadly hadn't got one but suggested I called in at a local garage and body shop called Ian Barkleigh (oops, hope I haven't spelt this wrong, I am mildly dyslexic, honestly I am).

A bit speculative really, BUT absolutely brilliant!

There was a chap called Dave there who at first was a bit , Nah we haven't got one of them (quite understandable really, he didn't know me from Adam) however he was clearly an enthusiast. Dave's curiosity got the better of him and he came out to have a look at the car.......again not much to see in the light, but he was patient and interested enough to have a look at the photos on my laptop and the letter I had sent.

Dave explained he had been doing bodywork for 25 years. He said the attempt by the dealer to remove the original hologram were dreadful. Said a few other things too! I speculated that it may have been an attempt to get the problem sorted fast and get rid of me. Dave went on to tell me what he would have done what he would have charged and how the polish left on the rubbers would not have occured if he had done it etc.

Dave explained about the problems with black cars (white cars easy to work on show less marks) and how he had to work with customers to get what they wanted. He called me "picky" but qualified this by saying that this is how I should be!!! He wants his customers to be happy with his work. Although he was aware that different customers wanted different things at different prices.

You will like the next bit QuattroGmBh, he said he would cure the problem with a polish using the finest and least abrasive product he could find. Dave showed me several types of polish allowing me to feel their abrasive texture and to compare them. By chance he had a similar 3M product (not the same). He also showed me and allowed me to feel the differences between different polishing pads. I the had a look at a Mirca he was doing....it looked really good.

After Dave had studied the photos, listened really well to the whole story and felt the texture of the paint on the car he felt certain that Morris would be ok doing what he appears to be going to do. We talked about paint thickness. "Unavoidable" said Dave but he explained that if the action was done properly there would be the minimum disruption and my clearcoat was ok...all things considered.

I spent about 3/4 hour with Dave and he gave me a crash course on detailing. Dave was really enthusiastic, especially as this was a Friday, last thing and there was nothing in it for him!

Needless to say I am alot happier. Told Dave about Briskoda and said I would mention him! Dave Many many thanks.....bit of a life saver!

Dave wouldn't take anything for the time and expert second opinion he offered me.....I had to force him. I could go on for another 10 pages about how helpful he was.

Just Priceless!

Dave works at Ian Barkleigh (SP!), on New Chester Road in Rock Ferry nr Birkenhead.

Cheers,

Paul.

[andy2407]

If you still want to get the paint thickness checked it might be worth trying to get hold of Iain at Finer Details.

He is a detailer based in the North West, and has done a few Brisky members cars. He seems to be well recommended on both here and Detailaing World.

Have a look at his detail of Fluffmeister's car in http://www.briskoda.net/forums/new-octavia/results-todays-detailing-session/70302/?highlight=finer+details - one of the photos in the first post shows his Paint Thickness readings.

His web-site is Welcome to Finer Details Ltd and lists a mobile number for him.

[Marwood]

Cheers Andy,

Have given Iain an email and my number. He is probably up to his eyes, but he might be able to help.

Thanks, very thoughtful of you!

Paul

EDIT:

Made contact with Iain. He has, even at very short notice, kindly agrred to check my car on Monday before it goes to the Dealership and then on to Morris.

Greatly appreciated, Thanks Iain.

Thanks again Andy!!!

Paul