2.5 TDi cold starting

[iob]

My "click" happens quite shortly after the GP light goes off, few seconds after in fact (should be the GP relay)... AFAIK the glowing happens in the 2 stages: initial powerful glow to start the engine and after starting - post-glow, at a lower state to keep noise and emissions low (GP's stay on for up to 3 minutes, depending on the temperature)...

Trimis de pe al meu D5503 folosind Tapatalk

[oh_superb]

Thanks. Mine is continuously clicking which is baffling a bit.

I'm glad now that I didn't buy new GPs.

[CRC]

FWIW ... I've never heard any clicking when the engine has been started from cold. Not from outside when clearing ice from the screen with the engine idling, or from inside when driving it immediately.

 

Since changing my GPs (which were all shot), not only does the car start much better ( immediate firing on all, no smoke), it also drives smoother for that first half mile or so, which makes me wonder if the GP relay does come on occasionally after starting to aid cold running?

 

I believe it's relay 202, but haven't found a link that shows where it lives yet.

 

120 amps x 12 volts is 1.44 kw of heat for that short space of time ...... toasty!!

 

PS What's the fish box area ?

Edited 19 January, 2015 by CRC

[iob]

I actually hear also a second click, at the moment when the rpm drops back at idle, after starting at a higher value than 800 - might be the relay's command to finnish the second stage of glowing (cold running aid)...

GP's relay is indeed the 202, located in the area above the pedals, accessible taking the panel out (I guess this is the fish box, as per the pond which might form below... :( )

[oh_superb]

Thanks for that.

FISH box area. I'm afraid that's auto spell checker - funny that, considering MK1 flooding issues. It was meant to be FUSE box. :-)

On a separate note, I mentioned I have had a wet top of fuel filter since the garage changed the filter and I pulled the Tee off to inspect the O ring and it seems OK. Inspection of the Tee did not show any damage either so baffled.

But what was very strange to me is that when I pulled the Tee off, I could see the filter elements clearly, there was no diesel in there!

How could this be when the filter fill point is quite high?

Unless of course there is some sort of tube from the fill point further down into the body of the filter. I don't know.

But I had suction in there as I was pulling the Tee off clearly showing that fuel head down to the tank was exerting a depression, which makes sense I guess. I should go back and check if the water drain valve is tight, if there is a drain valve. Can't remember.

This morning -5 and three GP cycles and it started kind of OK, a bit shaking but not that bad. It's a high mileage diesel after all.

Not checked CTS yet. Tomorrow hopefully.

Edited 20 January, 2015 by oh_superb

[iob]

Don't mention it... I didn't realize it was a misspell with the Fish Box, since the water ingress is the usual nightmare of almost any Mark I owner   

 

Last time when I had diesel on the brim of the fuel filter I inspected the "T" and found it had a hairline crack in it which was causing the dripping... A new one was ~ 10 GBP at the local stealer, so for that kind of money would be a cheap peace of mind; The part code was 057 127 247 J, so if I were you I would buy it on impulse... Especially if you don't have fuel in your filter

 

This morning again positive temperatures here (3 deg C), starting was impressively smooth, but I will not fool myself, the real test is yet to come if we get again minus17 (as 3 weeks ago)... bring it   

[CRC]

Actually timed my GP burn  time today and it was 6 seconds this morning at -4C, 3 seconds this evening at +3 after car had been standing for nine hours in temperatures of about +4C, and there seems to be about a 1 second burn at elevated temperures, eg after stopping at a shop for a few minutes after a run.

 

Presumably the 6, 3, 1 time interval is chosen by the ECU based on either the external air or the water temperature .... not sure which?

[iob]

Water (coolant) temperature. That is why, when the engine is already warm, the GP light goes off so quick, even if it is still cold outside (short stops)...

The "up to 3 minutes " what I mentioned in my earlier post consists of both stages, the periods mentioned by you are only the initial stage.

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[oh_superb]

Good to know other people's "glow times" for reference. I'm yet to check what G62 is reading , didn't quite feel the love this morning, been in limp mode all day, fever too, so when I get better.

I rotated the O ring a bit and cleaned the ID of the Tee and refitted. We shall see tomorrow if any improvement is evident. If not I'll get a new one.

It wasn't cracked before so they must have cracked it if it is cracked. Once again I am reminded not to let anyone touch my Skoda.

[dieselV6]

The tee sometimes just needs reseating on wet oring, assuming oring is undamaged (workshop gnomes usually squish the tee onto a dry oring and can pinch it at that very moment).

[rotodiesel]

Pattern filters are a menace and frequently cause air leaks, damage to the "T" and are frequently supplied with the wrong "O" rings. The bore for the "T" piece is also frequently poorly dimensioned.

 

The filter on the PD engines uses 2 "O" rings which should be different - one black and one blue. These rings are of differing hardness, so arranged as to seal effectively without over stressing the brittle "T" piece. The blue "O" ring is fitted nearer the hoses.

 

I used to test filters as part of my engine testing job, and most are junk - including some of the VAG OE filters I have seen, which are now Chinese. I will only ever fit filters made by Bosch or Mann & Hummel to any diesel engine in my charge. These makers also supply the correct "O" rings.

 

It is important to lubricate the filter bore with engine oil when fitting the "T". Avoid any silicones as they are insoluble in fuel and will block the microbores in the fuel entry ports on the PD injectors.

 

rotodiesel.

 

If a VP44 equipped engine is displaying poor cold start performance with good glowplugs, it's worth checking that the pump can deliver excess fuel for starting at normal cranking speeds. Unlike the PD, the VP44 engines need a highish cranking speed to achieve a cold start, even with a good pump. Any diesel engine requires excess fuel for starting - that's the cause of the puff of black smoke when the engine fires. White smoke is partially combusted fuel - which can arise when glowplug temperatures are insufficient or injector spray envelope is incorrect.

 

The best way to check glowplugs is to use an ammeter and check them individually in-situ. The current draw for each plug can be measured and the action of the ballast in reducing the current draw checked. Tip temperature is a function of current squared, so deficiencies here will be very obvious. I have found that Beru make the best glowplugs for my applications.

[oh_superb]

Having had a problem with non OEM filters before that's precisely why I went with VAG branded one this time.

The O ring seemed OK on inspection. I rotated it a bit on the filter body and them reseated the Tee. A few more drops of diesel were present today after 16 miles of driving. So better but not quite happy.

Not sure what to do now. I'm hoping that the seal will swell a bit but not sure it will. Or I could try and find a slightly bigger seal.

The filter was made in China. And I think it may be made by Knecht.

Next time Bosch.

[rotodiesel]

Filters are a minefield, but buying one in a VAG box is definitely no guarantee of fitness for purpose. For my preferences, see above.

 

I will not fit any components made in China.

 

rotodiesel.

[dieselV6]

Filters are a minefield, but buying one in a VAG box is definitely no guarantee of fitness for purpose. For my preferences, see above.

 

I will not fit any components made in China.

 

rotodiesel.

 

You may have a hard time finding any spares that are not made in China in a few years. Most German brands outsource to China now, and Bosch and Mann are prime examples unfortunately.

[rotodiesel]

On my desk: Mann HU 726/2x oil filter for PD - Made in Germany. Mann WK 853/3x fuel filter for PD - Made in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 

You just have to seek out the European sourced components. I have found the Chinese trading practices to be far short of my own standards and requirements where quality is concerned. As such, I will not deal with them.

 

rotodiesel.

[oh_superb]

There is a map in the calibration that specifies fuel injected quantity at cranking speeds, as a function of temperature. Perhaps worth nudging it up a bit. If the VP44 is not delivering enough, might be the only way to rectify.

But must check G62 is reading correctly first as wrong coolant temperature won't help matters.

With regard to the fuel filter I've sourced a range of seals and hope that one of them will be a suitable replacement. And I'll lube it up with some engine oil on assembly.

I hate handing over my car to mechanics, I should have known better, but a friend of mine had my vac pump to service his Cayenne so I didn't want to embark on fuel filter change without the security of the sealey TP69 to guarantee I could re-prime the system.

Edited 22 January, 2015 by oh_superb

[oh_superb]

However, just tried new seals, and even though one of them is almost a perfect match, ever so slightly bigger, and the Tee will just not go onto it.  As they are quite flimsy I didn't want to break it either!  A close inspection of the Tee revealed no cracks.

And when I re-assembled with the VAG seal, (after inspecting it closely, definitely no damage), it fits, but I can still "wiggle" the tee when it's seated, it just doesn't feel right.  Something's a bit off with the tolerancing here….

I hate handing over my car to mechanics, however, in this case I suspect it is a manufacturing fault of some sort at play.

I think I'll have to get a new Tee and/or filter. 

Looking at the internal bore of the Tee, it seems to have a bit of a ridge in place, from the injection moulding process, and it's roughly at the same depth where the O ring is meant to be.  Considering every single fuel filter change was troublesome on this car, one thing is common and that is the Tee, so I think I will purchase a new one and see what happens.  Before anyone asks, it is a genuine VAG Tee.  On top of a genuine VAG filter. :-)  And it's  match made in heaven :-)  

 

BTW, I have plugged VCDS into the car (an hour after stopping) and is reading 45 deg water and 47 deg C oil.  Not moving around either, stable.  So I think my G62 CTS is OK.

[oh_superb]

140 miles today, cabin filled with diesel fumes, diesel fuel puddle on the driveway.

Not good.

Evidently taking it all off and re-assembling might have made it worse despite being really careful. What a flaky design. New Tee on its way, I hope it fixes it.

[Gaz]

140 miles today, cabin filled with diesel fumes, diesel fuel puddle on the driveway.

Not good.

Evidently taking it all off and re-assembling might have made it worse despite being really careful. What a flaky design. New Tee on its way, I hope it fixes it.

 

 

Gaz

[iob]

Geez, what a mess... [emoji15] Fingers crossed fitting the new parts will fix it [emoji120]

[oh_superb]

Yes, true.  Hoping...

Tomorrow I have to go down to London, and not sure I should be taking the Superb in the current state of disrepair… 

Don't really fancy that trip in the 1.4 Honda.

The on Tuesday I was gonna drive my MRS up to Manchester… Now putting her on the train, can't really take the Honda that far, that would ruin me.

 

While having a look in there, spotted that some of the vacuum lines are very tired… So will do that too, especially now that there are some immersed in diesel fuel, that might just finish them off...

 

Does anyone know the nominal size to buy?

[jimbof]

I feel your pain :(  Good luck with the remedial work!

[oh_superb]

Started up the Superb, then cut out, then ran fine, air is obviously getting entrained through that Tee or O ring.  So I won't be driving it.

And now to make things worse I managed to reverse the Jazz into a grey lamp post on a grey day… It was leaning towards me / the victim Jazz at quite an angle, so it didn't even touch the bumper.. went straight at the glass which just shattered… kids weren't happy.  And the missus won't be happy either 

So now the back of the car is embellished in cardboard until tomorrow.

[CRC]

Strangely, my wife's car is also a Honda Jazz ( a 53 plate 1.4) and I've found it be a brilliant car, apart from having to fix the water leak into the rear passenger footwell, the water leak into the boot (from the gutter where the roof joins the side walls) and having to clean up the blob of solder corrosion on the electric window operating PCB in the drivers door that caused the drivers window to wind itself down whenever it felt like, normally at night when it was raining.

 

Why do I keep buying cars that require me to fix leaks that manufacturers seem to deliberately design into these things?

[oh_superb]

Interesting!  Ours is a 52 plate, not spent a penny on it except annual oil service (DIY) and recently new pads, and one wiper.

Corrosion is dreadful on these, I tried to change the air filter but all screws are corroded to such an extent that removal is impossible.

So left the old one in there until I can find some new screws and drill the old ones out.

On the body as well, look underneath it and it is a scary sight.  The Superb is same age but so much better protected corrosion wise.

We have had condensation lately, every morning, water is pouring down the inside surfaces, I reckon there may be some water accumulating somewhere inside, but have not found it yet.  The carpets are dry, I suppose they are the cheap nasty stuff, so water will show sooner than on the posh spec Superb.

We had a recall done on the driver's window switch on the Jazz.

Otherwise been a faultless car, except for the gearbox problem, but we just keep driving it with a whiny gearbox, it is only going to the school and back or to the shops, and if it does pitch, recon boxes are 200 quid.

My colleague was convincing me today to go for a Lexus next, his dad has one (from new) and it has never ever gone wrong.

 

Anyway, my MEYLE branded fuel Tee arrived today, we shall see how the installation goes and whether it stops the leak.

Edited 26 January, 2015 by oh_superb