wyx087

Please re-read, I've talked about that. You've utterly, completely missed my point:

And how will things like that affect usability of the car when it's 10+ years old? Is it going to cost the owner £12 a day extra to drive it? Is it going to pollute more as it ages? The free extra battery capacity is probably only during emergency, they are not a charity 😉 https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/09/tesla-remotely-extends-the-range-of-some-cars-to-help-with-irma/

What game can they play? What game are EV industry going to play to force people to buy new cars? Remember ULEZ and diesel-gate isn't enforced/discovered by the car industry. From government carrot and stick point of view, there is no in-use emissions game to be played. Once an BEV is produced, it's done. The in-use emissions will be based solely on power grid, which government can clean up and overnight same EV becomes cleaner. Unlike old ICE cars, oldest BEV does not pollute more. As it covers more miles, per-mile pollution drops. So there would no longer be any pressure to punish the old BEV owners. Actually the opposite, BEV's need to be incentivised to be kept on the road for as long as possible. With battery in EV's able to be recharged and support people independently from the grid. Anyone can choose to become self reliant by self generate using renewable micro generation. Again, opposite of what ICE cars forced people to do, batteries empower people to gain freedom from the monthly payment status quo. Batteries, not EV's, are the enabler to a whole new world of clean and (by choice) independent energy. BEV just happen to house the biggest one most people will privately own. Of course, consumerism will always temp people to buy new things. It's the same for all things, this isn't my problem with the auto industry. My problem is their culture of "fast follower" and unwillingness to be early mass producer of EV's. I was ready for EV in 2017 (and bought one) but I was really frustrated by the lack of choice. Only Nissan-Renault and Tesla made the commitment in early 2010's. I guess you can tell, I'm an early adopter of all things tech and I'm excited for the future. Already started integrating GPT AI stuff into my work. I'm always looking for opportunities in this changing world.

I'm all for this and I think that climate friendly/green movement is actually the opportunity to move towards more equality. For example, third world country are leap frogging developed country and directly going to renewables, empowering people without needing a continuous payment. Another example, micro-mobility are much cheaper to buy and own, but able to achieve most tasks. As always, whether people grasp this opportunity..... But as usual, there's always those who resist changes and get left behind. Back in the real world and back on topic, to drive change, there's only the carrot or the stick. Unfortunately the stick most affects those who are not well off, this problem is entirely manufactured by the ICE car industry: "buy our latest car for less emissions". EV have the ability to break that cycle, the longer an EV is kept in use, the less per-mile carbon emissions. Other types of emissions (tyre, brake) can be fixed by changing individual components. The price of EV is due to poor supply of cheap second hand cars as supply, another fault of auto industry not investing in EV's in 2000's and not offering enough EV's back in mid 2010's. The existing centralised energy industry were doing their best to keep the inequality status quo. Renewables, battery and by extension EV's could change that.

All the details are here. Nowhere mentions needing to have secured purchase/buying of car. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/scrappage-schemes On top of scrappage scheme, there are companies offering other transport related discounts: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-support-offers Interesting ones are micro-mobility such as Lime scooter rental. Cars just doesn't work in cities. For those living outside, if they really cannot use public transport (eg. need huge wheelchair), there is a grace period for wheelchair vehicles and a few others. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/discounts-and-exemptions#on-this-page-0 We really need to re-think mobility and embrace idea of fitting vehicle with use-case:

There are over 4000 cars that are ULEZ compliant, under £3000, within 50 miles of St Paul's: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Petrol&fuel-type=Petrol Plug-in Hybrid&fuel-type=Petrol Hybrid&include-delivery-option=on&make=&postcode=EC4M 8AD&price-to=3000&radius=50&sort=price-asc&year-from=2006 Call me out of touch, but do people really don't have savings? The very minimum level of financial safety net? These jobs are ripe for tech disruption. Since late 90's, it would be ...... not sure the PC word....... for parents to not guide their kids' vision away from jobs that are to be disrupted. In the coming decade, generative AI will further disrupt many more jobs. It's all normal part of ever changing world.

I never referred to Tesla inventory model because it's like looking for cars on the dealership lot, there ought to be comparable but varied and difficult to compare discount. By 2025 when EV's will be subject to VED and expensive car tax, it is a sure bet that Model 3 will drop below £40k. It is highly probable it'll be £38.8k so you can buy with a colour/wheel/interior of your choice. On Tesla, everything else come as standard, same on every trim: Heated everything, pano roof, elec boot, ACC and lane centering, etc. Don't need to add cost for options list. Is £40k expensive for a brand new car? Government have been exercising fiscal drag, £40k in 2017 is £50k in July 2023 according to BoE. £31.6k in 2017 is £40k these days. I remember looking at 3 series in 2016, IIRC starting from ~£30k. (decided on a second hand Octy to tide me over to full EV) Nowadays, 3 series start from £39.6k before extensive options list, smaller Golf GTI (far from highest trim) start £39k before options, and larger Superb sportline (still not highest trim) start just under £39k. £40k cars these days are actually £30k cars 6 years ago, Everything has gotten more expensive...... except for Tesla's

Enjoy looking at modding old EV's? It's guys like this that's making it possible. Old Leaf battery? No problem, he's using Leaf battery as home battery with some very simple wiring: Before you say fire risk, the BMS are in the packs, BMS controls everything to do with pack safety. He's only sending Chademo or translate CAN bus commands to achieve his goal.

Indeed, you are very good at "looking under the stone" for reports that doesn't support your view point, it's okay, a single sentence will do them justice: Am I right in summarising that you don't trust: motor industry, shipping industry, news reporting, electrical engineers, university papers, politicians, power companies, and grid operators. This is a fun one, let's just move the goal post because my reply didn't support your view point: So is the Golf a mass market car that most people can afford, or a fairly expensive premium brand car that is difficult for people to afford? I'm eagerly awaiting you to "dig some references out" regarding this reality you claim. Is it that same Volvo report used by Mr Beans to claim ICE is greener than BEV's. Despite the problems in the Volvo report had been repeatedly pointed out: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/21/unpacking-the-electric-cars-arent-as-green-as-you-think-claims/ https://insideevs.com/news/458458/legacy-automakers-backed-study-against-evs-debunked/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles Or Astongate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/20/dont-fall-for-the-myth-that-internal-combustion-cars-are-greener-than-batteries-over-their-lifetheyre-not/ https://www.irishevs.com/understanding-astongate https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/laggard-carmakers-caught-out-trying-pass-anti-ev-research-independent/

Which all-season are you going with? For Leaf, I need to start shopping for tyres soon, finally all 4 are wearing out at same time, so thinking of going all season as well.

At half past 3 in the middle of the night. Man, you are dedicated. For your info, if you are ever nearby to open-to-all supercharger, worth checking. I've seen some Tesla superchargers have off-peak price of 21p at 0-4am. Price is calculated at the time you plug it in (eg. plug in at 3:59 and get off peak price). Yesterday I tried to charge on a really really old CYC post, which are managed by BP Pulse but fallen into disrepair and it is in an underground car park that can't authenticate with Pulse server (hence I can get free charging). I plugged in at above 40% in my Leaf, when I unplug the car was at 33% and charge point said no power delivered 😡 Got home scanned for error and had a few in the HVAC module. I had to clear the error code for it to charge. Another quirk of first-gen legacy auto maker EV, if it had actual useful information display (charging amp, voltage, power, etc) I could have known there's problem and won't left it plugged in self-consuming power for its electronics. I've had different error code in similar module, "unstable input voltage" error on the Tesla at home as solar production swings wildly on a windy day whilst a cooking appliance uses PWM to control its power draw. Tesla didn't need any programming dongle to clear the code, it has a notification system like phones and simply unplug and plug it back in to clear that error. There's no evidence to suggest this failure is anywhere near normal and need to be calculated as running cost. The video said it's due to a single module discharging faster than rest, suggesting manufacturing defect that surfaced as the battery ages. I've seen Leaf 40 pack with similar defect on SpeakEV, that should be under warranty. There are a few high mileage (but not old age) examples out there: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ <- reason for this 300k mile replacement is similar https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-2018-tesla-model-3-passed-the-300000-mile-mark-here-s-what-you-need-to-know-194534.html The replacement cost lines up with this article: https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

First, thousands of cars out of how many sold each year? Over 1.6 million car registered a year. Is 0.25% of statical importance? Second, break even point varies depend on energy source and size of battery. Of course getting those use-cases 100 kWh battery EV's will never see net zero. 20 miles a week is just over 1000 miles a year. Even a first-gen 20 kWh Zoe/Leaf will be more than plenty. For those use cases, the Citroen Ami is the perfect car. I know you will dismiss the following as "vested interest" or "paid by manufacturers". But I believe Union of Concerned Scientists to be genuine, considering their origin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Concerned_Scientists https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/driving-cleaner https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-climate

Thanks for correction, the French always has to be special. I thought Zoe made CCS standard in their 2022 refresh, I was mistaken, it is still an optional extra 🤯 All EV except quad-bike, a few low end cars have CCS rapid charging as standard. Looks like the Dacia Spring also won't have CCS as standard: https://www.myevreview.com/tech-specs/dacia/spring/electric-45 Or All EV except quad-bike have rapid charging capability if spec'd. Personally, I hate poverty spec cars......

All EV's (excluding "quad bike" such as Ami and that Renault thingy), from every spectrum, have the capability to rapid charge using the single plug standard in Europe known as CCS. Nissan Leaf and a few other early Nissan only support Chademo rapid charging. This is an Japanese standard that is not mandated by EU. Early Zoe only support 22 kW AC charging, still fast enough for its battery if you can find 22 kW charge points. Last few years, Zoe 50 have CCS rapid charging. A comparable car to the Golf would be MG4, starting from £27k (Golf starts from £26.5k for a manual). This have CCS rapid charging as well as LFP battery giving around 200 miles of range. The statement is correct for vast majority of cars being produced because vast majority of cars are being used. You are using an extreme use case just for argument sake. The National Grid ESO (second link in my earlier post) is not a power company. They don't sell energy. They are responsible for ensure smooth operation of the electrical grid. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/electricity-system-operator-eso-regulation The Dacia Spring is rumoured to be "well under £20k", will be on sale next year: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-city-ev-finally-confirmed-uk-sales-2024 Corsa petrol starts from £19k. From purely vehicle powertrain point of view, this is true. But BEV are more than a car, batteries are the new frontier (to quote an old thread title). Battery can provide more electrical power than a running engine can provide, this is useful for many things other than moving a vehicle. Battery can also store excess renewable by charging slowly on command. Battery can even be used to support and balance the grid using V2G.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. Why would everyone want/need to have a rapid charger? Pepsi seems to be able to make it work: https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/pepsico-explains-uses-tesla-semi-electric-trucks-glimpse-future-of-trucking/ But yes, for long haul truckers, hydrogen or e-fuel might make more sense than BEV. The best solution is still being worked on. Ok, what about the IEEE, IET and MIT? What interest do they have for mass EV adoption? IEEE: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104 Titled: Why EVs Aren't a Climate Change Panacea Unless people change their behaviors, we won't hit 2050 net zero emissions targets This IEEE Spectrum article somewhat echoes your view that it will not solve climate crisis. But it effectively says one of primary reason is the slow adoption speed. The rest of article goes into the second reason, for example, emissions in other sectors (not transport, which is kind of off-topic IMO) and EV manufacturing supply chain concerns. There are many similar balanced articles in IET E&T magazine. For example this issue is especially talking about EV's: https://eandt.theiet.org/tags/volume-17-issue-9 So, you won't listen to power company, the people in the know. But for reference, here are what those experts are saying: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/our-progress-towards-net-zero/net-zero-explained/electric-vehicles/evs-and "We estimate that up to 37.4 million Electric Vehicles (EVs) will be on UK roads by 2050 – that’s a huge increase on today, where there are fewer than 1 million. Such numbers will see EVs playing an important role in transforming the electricity system, with things like smart charging, ‘vehicle to grid’ technology and charging behaviour key to helping bring down carbon emissions. " Which sentence, which word, in which post am I admitting that now an EV is not actually greener? Highlight the text and press the "quote selection" button that pops up. It's much easier on a computer, but doable on mobile. Fossil fuel (petrol/diesel) in its liquid form is useless. Out of the fuel tank it must be burned to extract energy. Battery at its terminals produce useful electric energy that can be easily turned into kinetic/heat energy. So battery in EV's is comparable to the engine in the sense that it is the main component of the vehicle responsible for producing useful form of energy. Put it another way, when the cabin of the car reaches 50c in the sun like today, can you take fuel out of fuel tank to cool down the cabin without involvement of the engine? In VW configuration, paste in this code: "VFK9C6ZX" for a second cheapest "Style" trim Golf 8 spec'd to have similar stuff as standard Model 3. https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/configurator.html?---={"configuration-step-navigation-service"%3A"%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%7B%22context%22%3A%22mofa-standalone%22%2C%22selectedStep%22%3A%22carline%22%7D"} After config, Golf costs £37k. Model 3 costs £43k £6k difference (or 1/6 price increase) for a more premium brand and more power, 50:50 weight distrusted RWD car sounds like a good deal to me. Every other Golf apart from lowest 3 trim levels, start from £37k. £10k over promised starting price. EV's are perceived to be more expensive because they always load the cars with equipment. Whereas poverty spec cars are a very sad place to spend time, so one always has to spend a bit more for those options, closing the price difference. (I've always gone for highest non-race trim possible)

Thanks for that. It's unlikely that part will ever be moved from the warehouse, considering the market value of e-Golf. Pure ICE are a dying breed. Even now, 7 years before the ban, most cars are electrified to some degree. Granted, we have yet to learn about the specific of the ban (eg. how many electric miles it must do to not be banned until 2035). This will likely driven by market forces based on what ICE manufacturer deem economically viable at that time.

And what is the price of a brand new ICE for an out of production car? At current price of <$120 per kWh and e-Golf have around 35 kWh, a new pack using current battery tech should be around $4200. All in a replacement should be no more than £10k. People are resistant to change, we need to stop burning stuff ASAP. BEV is currently the best solution, not prefect but best out of other solutions. So government has to step in to speed up the adoption. Besides, no one is forcing anyone to buy EV for 12 more years.

Well, yes. Why wouldn't it be? The car still functions as a car, in the odd days that you need to use the original full range of the car, it would only add 10min extra to your trip to do a quick splash-dash at rapid charger. Do you need do 300-400 miles every day? Even if doing 350 miles a day, 200 miles degrade to 160 miles is the difference between 2 rapid charging stops and a few more minutes at same 2 rapid charging stops. There's many non-driveway solutions posted already. The cost of living prediction is another of your spiralling doom conclusion based solely on poor assumptions. Why would things need longer to be done? I sense there is a misconception or lack of will to seek out information. EV's can charge at 2 different grades of speed: slow (official name is fast) or rapid. If the delivery van have zero downtime, it can be rapid charged in 30min at the depo while loading. If it was parked somewhere for any length of time, plug it in and charge it up. I've posted this previously. Even when charged via fossil fuel powered sources, EV is still greener than ICE car. Please refer to my previous posts you've conveniently ignored. Can you post some reference for the second underlined statement? Expand on what aspects you are referring to? As I said, please refer to my previous post on whole-life analysis of EV vs ICE car emissions. Regarding excess renwables, no, we (England) does not currently have large amount of excess renewables. But it's coming. Rrenewables will to be built to excess, time-of-use electricity tariff will become normal, thus when wind or sun isn't generating there is still enough to push through low demands (driven low by expensive time-of-use pricing). Matching demand to supply will be name of the game. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable "we" will be "crash test dummies"?? Have you seen Norway's ICE car ban timeline and their current adoption rate?

This car holds the record of most record broken by a car. Still pushing over 1g at 71mph. And the sound it makes..... People say EV's lack of sound is boring, they obviously haven't accelerated hard enough in EV's.

I don't see its 20% reduced range is a problem in any shape or form. Do people really drive their car full to empty? If the car is only used for 15 miles a day, just plug it in slightly more often. Actually, why only plug it in near empty? Plug it in everyday and forget about it. EVM youtuber made a good analogy: Think back to phones, if you have choice of two phones: a phone that lasts a week, but can only charge at the phone shop; or a phone that requires charging every day but can be charged at bedside table. Which one is more convenient? I know not everyone have driveways, there's well over 12 years to sort this out. But the idea that EV must be a direct replacement to ICE car right down to refuel time/frequency must change. Batteries in EV's an asset to the grid, we need to get used to keep it plugged in to soak up excess renewables.

Indeed, vast majority of ICE works perfectly fine until car is beyond economical repair, as you said, these days it's usually not the engine. Similarly, majority of EV's don't experience battery problem. Of course, the true stats that we need for comparison is not available. But I suspect due to first-generation nature of early EV's, the failure rate will be higher than established and refined ICE.

Well, I think it is a valid comparison, because the battery failure is not guaranteed in the same way an engine that has been poorly service is not guaranteed to fail after X miles. They are both probabilistic cost incurred due to X chance of component failure. I included engine rebuild in addition to engine replacement for that reason, engines are made up of components that can be individually replaced. There are also many cases where the battery is working perfectly fine after 8 years. My Nissan Leaf for example. Just like there are many cases where ICE works perfectly fine out of warranty.

So after finding all that evidence, are EV fire news/numbers suppressed or not? WRT battery replacement cost, this very early Model S owner after 8.5 years 160k miles, says his out of warranty refurbished battery replacement cost done by Tesla was £10k, ignoring the obvious maths error in the video. (£8100 + £1800 = £8900??) Looking on Autotrader, the car is worth about £30-35k. But his now has 4 more years of battery warranty. So worth the repair cost? Out of interest, how much would an engine rebuild or refurbished engine replacement cost at main dealer?

I think you'll find EV fires are reported more in media than ICE car fires. One is a regular occurrence so rarely make the news, the other is a new technology and click-baity. Remember the ratio of car fires between EV and ICE cars, and then think back on the amount of car fires get reported. Your theory of EV fires being covered up is......... I mean, I didn't know about the BMW N57 engine fires until a few post ago. Whereas I've heard a lot about Tesla fires in mainstream media. There's even a website dedicated to recording Tesla fires: https://www.tesla-fire.com/ The root cause is within the ICE though, nothing to do with whether it is a hybrid or not. Please refer to this quote from the article:

Recall under way, I don't see any problem with manufacturers making a mistake and making an effort to put it right. It happens with all sort of cars, for example Ford recalling due to "engine failure that may cause fire": https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-recalls-more-than-125000-suvs-due-fire-risk-nhtsa-2023-06-06/ On the ship fire, we have to wait, as you rightly concluded. So what's the point you are trying to make by bring it up again and again?