Graham Butcher

It doesn't make any difference to DVLA how much you actually pay for the car, or if you brought the car direct from Tesla thus saving a massive amount of the RRP, it is the RRP price that will always use for their calculations. In addition to this there is also another bit to the VED besides the RRP and that is the CO2 and NOX emissions from the tailpipe. As EV's don't do either as they don't have a tailpipe 😄, I think it be folly to think that they won't find another way to replace that revenue, and that could perhaps be based on weight or range of the car etc. One thing is pretty certain, they will not be able to afford foregoing that revenue. The other issue with Tesla's flirtation with direct selling to customers and cutting the dealers out of the loop, is what happens if the customer has problems with the car, the dealer will not want to get be involved as they have made zero out of the sale.? Problems problems.

The points that you raise are only available to a few EV owners / drivers. As a company car driver, I used to get free fuel for private use as it was brought on a company fuel card. Item 1 Around here at least, there are few places where people have the ability to charge at home, especially true in older areas of the city. Item 2 Servicing is not always cheaper as this 6 month old video reveals. (mind you, I notice that on the invoice it did mention a cambelt check, on an EV?) Item 3 is debatable as many more people now work from home and so item 1 comes back into play. Item 4. I'm not sure about this aspect, EV's still appear to be pricey to me at least. Item 5. I really can't see that any government is going to be able to sustain free VED for EV's as they will be losing massive revenue due to the fall in ICE cars on the road, driven not only by the fact more people will be switching to EV's but also because they introduced quotas for ICE cars that can be sold each year, and that gets more aggressive each year. So it might well become an urban myth that EVs are far cheaper to run than their ICE counterparts. This aspect might well be falling into the category that our current government seems to rely on, and that is that if you repeat something often enough that people will begin to believe its true even when it is a blatant lie.

I would argue that Tesla does not have the right, nor the moral high ground on this issue. It is well known that carrying extra weight around costs more, which the buyer has to cover. Added to this is that here in the UK at least, VED becomes payable on EV cars and so that means that the customer could be paying an increased tax because the extra capacity could be unlocked at any point by software.

At those prices and when you add in the VED which is being introduced in 2025, its not really encouraging people to decide to switch until they have zero options left.

Those prices are the norm in most places around here and maybe higher along motorways at their services, can't be 100% certain but that is I remember from seeing YT videos.

That could be another plausible reason for it. If that is the case then it sure as hell blows a hole right through their claimed battery longevity and low battery degradation, thus making them just as guilty as ICE makers, like VW, BMW and Mercedes with their diesel gate scandal.

You still don't understand, the reserve tank on some IC cars was not there for normal use, it was designed purely for emergency use, be it a national emergency or the type of emergency caused by missing your junction on a motorway and having to drive that bit further before being able to refuel the car. This reserve tank had to be switched in by the operation of a special switch when the car started spluttering due to fuel starvation. In the case of your Tesla it is not there as a design feature for your benefit, but for Tesla's benefit so they only had to make one model for both standard range and enhanced range versions, the latter was only unlocked once the owner paid the extra fee.

Good idea Colin, I fancy a beer, I'll just pop to the fridge and I'll join you in one. 😉

Oh come on, surely you know exactly @skomaz is trying to say, why do you always try to twist things? Dear oh dear, do you have shares in Tesla or something. Many IC cars like Jaguar, Rovers, Daimler and Vanden Plas had special reserve tanks built-in as standard equipment many years ago so if you got caught out and was unable because of traffic conditions etc get to the service station before the normal tanks run dry, you could switch in this special reserve tank in such an emergency without having to make a phone call to the factory for the unlock code etc. If its not too much of a personal question for you, how old are you? I'm guessing that you are pretty young, as your knowledge of IC vehicles seems to be a little lacking, if you don't mind me saying.

So are you now saying that you didn't mean to say what you wrote above then, which is what I was referring, when I said that EV makers marketing depts will be making similar claims when they introduce new models, they have to sell new cars all the time or go bust.

If @wyx087 thinks that once anybody gets an EV thats the last time that the EV makers are going to bother to tempt him buy a new model, then he definitely has his head buried in the sand. They have marketing departments whose task is to encourage sales of new cars to new and existing customers, just the same as ICE makers. You just know what they will be making similar claims about how much greener their new models are over the older ones, more miles/Kw, more range between charges, cheaper running costs etc.

Well just maybe next year more people will use their right to vote, hopefully there will less apathy around then, let's wait and see, keep your fingers crossed on that front. Sometimes I feel that we need to be more like the French and revolt at times and say to the authorities enough is enough and make sure that they get the message loud and clear.

I could have placed a bet on that you would put a completely different slant on the moving forward as a society. I meant by lowering the massive gulf that exists in this country between "the haves and have nots", so that nobody has to rely on foodbanks, or rough sleeping etc. You certainly have a very jaundiced view of the ICE car industry, I'm afraid, do you really think that the EV industry isn't going to play a similar game

Thanks for posting this, never realised this info was available, I'm over on the left that chart then, pension only pays £1000 a month and just housing takes £600 a month. 😒

My point entirely, people who are in a privileged position just don't get how lucky they are and certainly cannot think outside their box, which is one of the reason why I think that EV cars may not be the magic bullet that some people seem to think they are and also the same with all the low emission zones being setup across the country, some people may actually end up paying multiple charges. Having already stated that the EV situation is unlikely to affect me in my lifetime and secondly, my car already complies with most of LEZ's so once does not really affect me. But having been in a lower income bracket all my life, never been away for a holiday in the UK let alone flown or cruised for a holiday, simply because I could not afford to. I have never been a drinker, a gambler or a smoker, so no money has been wasted on those. I also was never able to get onto the property ladder, so I have been a social housing tenant all of my life so far. My Father died many years ago and had been a labourer all his life so had zero savings and no life insurance, so I became the only bread winner in the family, so I had to support myself and my Mother. I can see just how hard if not impossible it could be loads of families. My storey is far from unique, and yet we have leaders of the country who are billionaires and some are millionaires and have zero idea of what it is like for people in similar positions. They like many here on this forum lack the ability to see outside their circle/box If we could level the field a bit more, then we could embrace the forth coming changes more equally a society, rather than as winners and losers., @Luckypants I applaud for having the ability to understand that many will be far worse off.

Easier said than done I'm afraid, sometimes those are the only jobs that are available when employers want people with previous experience or there are simply heaps of graduates who are unable to find jobs in their chosen profession, actually stacking shelves in supermarkets. Sometimes, people, however well-intentioned, particularly those in positions of power, just need to stop and think things through, and maybe better still people in those positions need to have experienced what it is like for those people who are struggling. Talking is cheap and easy to do, but actions are not.

As I understand it, there is a grant of up to £2,000 to Londoners to assist in them getting a new car. So do you know how this scheme works? I read that businesses can get up to £7,000 to buy a new EV van to replace an old non-compliant van. So just how does this scheme work, I would expect that you have to, first, secure the replacement vehicle before applying for the grant, otherwise it would be wide open to abuse. So that there, to me, suggests that the applicant need to be able to afford the replacement vehicle, either for cash or able to secure a loan in the first instance, if so that there is a major stumbling block. Secondly, are able to go and buy an existing 2nd hand vehicle and still get the grant? Thirdly, if you can use the grant to assist with the purchase of a 2nd hand compliant vehicle, will you be able to get the full grant amount or a percentage of it? I have read the latest statement about these grants, it does not make it plain nor does it provide any examples of how it works. It also only makes the grant available to Londoners, what those people who are living within easy reach of London and have to drive in each day for work, there seems to be zero assistance for those people. In some cases it would mean those living in certain sections of a road may get the grant, but those on the opposite side for example can't and yet both work in London and have to drive in daily because public transport does not work for them i.e, they may work in public transport, but they have to travel when public transport is not available at those times. You also mention 10,000 lives are shortened by the poor air, and yet City Hall claim only 4,000 lives are affected, so which it. Personally, I think that even 4,000 is stretching the point.

Tesla's may be the exception here, but surely that is just another good example of price gouging, everybody is at it. Same with the ULEZ expansion in London, although my car is already complaint so does not affect me (currently), but I'm still against it, even with the City Hall scrappage scheme there are literally thousands of families who are faced with a real problem. They are unable to really afford the £12.50 a day to use their cars, and they also do not even earn enough or have any savings to scrap together the balance to purchase a replacement car, even with the support from City Hall. Equally, they cannot afford to move out of the zone into surrounding areas and look for employment away from the ULEZ zone. One of my sons works in the retail sector which during the Pandemic he was classified as one of the Key Workers that helped keep the country going during all the lockdowns and yet most people in that industry are not even on proper regular hours contracts but we all rely on people like him. He has different shifts and some weeks he may only have 2 or 3 days work, others maybe 4 or 5, there is nothing that he could rely on to go and get a loan against. How are people like him going to be able to survive, its one thing to say that Tesla's are getting cheaper while others are getting more expensive but is cold comfort to these poor folk who cannot even see a way to even dream about owning one. Next time you go shopping, observe the growing numbers of self-serve tills at the supermarkets, even these low paid, low security jobs are being phased out we are heading into some very uncertain times.

You do get problems with some new items, remember the Galaxy notes catching fire a few years ago? Best not to get to complacent and stay safe.

Agree, in my experience it usually tends to be structural damage that sees cars being confined to the scrapyard even years after they ceased production, if the actual structure is good, the mechanicals can be shot to hell, but there is usually enough cars at the scrapyards that can donate their mechanicals to make a good car again. There are some exceptions, like Jenson Interceptors, Jag E types, early Minis etc where there is enough will power among a few individuals to set up a business dedicated to keeping these classics going even down to them buying the original machines and jigs from the factory to reproduce all the panels and structural parts even to be able to fabricate a complete new shell if required. Jensen | Martin Robey

Yes, I understand you but I'll have to try and dig some references out that help in that regard. I mentioned the fire aspect with the Electric Classic Cars attempt at dispelling the myth as an example of how people don't seem able to us common sense and how simple facts simply can go over peoples heads because they have already brought into the philosophy and can't see the wood for the .trees. Sometimes people need to stop taking things that they are told at face value and examine things more, look under the stone, look beyond the obvious to make sure there is not a giant Gotcha waiting just around the corner. Pluralistic ignorance may account for some of it, rather like the Emperors New Clothes.

Well for years that was all I could get as a company car user until I gained seniority status and even more so today is all that many people can afford with wages being effectively going in reverse over the years in many sectors of the work force. Think your self lucky that either can afford a better class of car or have an employer who thinks you deserve a better car, there are many people right now who would love something better but can't.

I don't need an engine, I'm just getting a price for the benefit of this discussion with regard to engine cost v battery cost.

I'll try and find them again when I have more time to spare, but I subscribe to Stuart Fillingham channel, Geoff buys cars and also Petrol Ped along with a host of others including Electric Classic Cars and in the video below Moggy sets out to prove that electric cars bursting into fire is a myth and he tried to show that a Lithium Ion cell, a 18650 (which Tesla use 7104 of these in Model 3 battery pack) and you will see that he dons all the safety gear just in case he was able to get the 18650 to go into a thermal runaway by smashing it with a club hammer while the cell was laying on its side. He failed and claimed that he had proved it was a myth. Such information is both misleading and also dangerous, and clearly showed that he was out of his depth with regard to the process of cells becoming unstable. To create an internal short circuit the cell plates, anode and cathode must be brought into contact with each other and the best way of doing that is to drive a metal object into and penetrate the cell sideways so the metal object punches through both electrodes and the separator as demonstrated in one of the other videos I have already posted links to. By Moggy bashing the hell of the 18650 cell like he does, he is really only deforming the cell and therefore not rupturing the electrodes or the separator so, not causing the desired short circuit internally. Also a flat 18650 is going to be considerably less dangerous than a fully charged one, again that is shown in the video I mentioned above. YouTube channels can be very informative and entertaining, but they can also be misleading and lull people into a false sense of security, and they then think that is safe and that they themselves are now knowledgable in these things because of what they have seen. I said before, it is not until you learn something that you truly understand just how little you do know and sadly sometimes that manifests itself by someone having an accident because they thought something was safe when it wasn't because they did not fully understand it in the first instance and give it enough respect. The next time, if they are lucky enough to be given a 2nd chance, they will. How many people involved in this thread are fully qualified electrical engineers (and we are talking electrics here) and understand just how an EV works or even understands the basics of Ohms Law. And now a video that actually shows the construction of a 18650 cell and there is clearly shows why Moggy in his video was not able to get a reaction with the hammer as the separator was still doing its job of keeping the anode and cathode apart from each other. A clear example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Hmm, not to sure about them just being converted and getting them insured without some sort of certification process before they will insure them, this is all new uncharted waters and perhaps there is somebody on the forum who is in insurance and could give us an opinion on that. I know every time I get insurance on my car, they always ask about any changes that might have been made to the car that were not as per original specification, even down to changing out the wheels for ones that were not the same as originally supplied. When that nice, thoughtful and careful other driver wrote my car off and I went to make a claim, that question was asked once again. I'm guessing that if you were to so no, and they did subsequently find out that I had swapped the wheels, or fitted a larger engine, had the ECU remapped to give more performance, that they use that to disqualify the claim or at least modify and settlement downwards because the car was not the way it was declared when they quoted the premium.