Chris, slow process but compare the "real costs" on Home - What Car? Helping you buy better for an idea of the running costs. Saves you working it out for yourself.

The cost comparisons on there are a bit biased toward residuals over running costs as they base the costs on 36,000 miles over 3 years. Fuel plays a bigger part for me, residuals being important too.

On residuals and fuel, the Mini is definitely the cheapest to run. It may even be possible to own one for 1 year, sell up and get another as Mini 1st year depreciation is very low.

The Skoda Fabia Sport 1.4 and Mitsubishi Colt came in similar cost too, the Fiat 500 cheaper still. Punt and Bravo models were costly as was the Yaris. Citroen C2 was most expensive after the Bravo range which was very expensive due to depreciation. Even the little Hyundai i10 and Getz were not stunningly less expensive over 3 years than the Mini and both of those will have near zero residuals with higher mileage.

When you sell a high miler, you only get a market for deirable cars, hence, the Fabia vRS I have, although now 112,000 miles + is still worth a few bob. I think Minis will sell because they are desirable. Reading customer reviews is scary though, sort of like reading about British Leyland product sometimes.

More research ongoing. Test driving next month.

Chris

The cost comparisons on there are a bit biased toward residuals over running costs as they base the costs on 36,000 miles over 3 years. Fuel plays a bigger part for me, residuals being important too.

On residuals and fuel, the Mini is definitely the cheapest to run. It may even be possible to own one for 1 year, sell up and get another as Mini 1st year depreciation is very low.

The Skoda Fabia Sport 1.4 and Mitsubishi Colt came in similar cost too, the Fiat 500 cheaper still. Punt and Bravo models were costly as was the Yaris. Citroen C2 was most expensive after the Bravo range which was very expensive due to depreciation. Even the little Hyundai i10 and Getz were not stunningly less expensive over 3 years than the Mini and both of those will have near zero residuals with higher mileage.

When you sell a high miler, you only get a market for deirable cars, hence, the Fabia vRS I have, although now 112,000 miles + is still worth a few bob. I think Minis will sell because they are desirable. Reading customer reviews is scary though, sort of like reading about British Leyland product sometimes.

More research ongoing. Test driving next month.

Chris

interesting what you say about the customer reviews on the mini..... I did warn you!

looking forward to the test drive reviews

looking forward to the test drive reviews

Ditto

In a similar vein to Tavia's Prius suggestion.

Hummer ?

:sofahide:

Prius might be a good idea promotion wise, the GREEN driving instructor?

When I was learning the cheapest driving instructor was the best, Pug 205 diesel was my steed of choice! But I know what you mean these days of image is king which is probably why the Mini Cooper D is pretty popular where I live.

If you are independant does being the cheapest in the area make you the most popular? Corsa 1.3D, Pug 107, Cit C1 and so on?

Prius might be a good idea promotion wise, the GREEN driving instructor?

When I was learning the cheapest driving instructor was the best, Pug 205 diesel was my steed of choice! But I know what you mean these days of image is king which is probably why the Mini Cooper D is pretty popular where I live.

If you are independant does being the cheapest in the area make you the most popular? Corsa 1.3D, Pug 107, Cit C1 and so on?

Well at the risk of wandering off topic, the market is very price led for new clients, but if your reputation is good, the clients will come to you even if someone else does undercut you. Where price is critical is when someone phones the driving school trawling through quotes. Here, nearly all enquiries are about price. Luckily, many of my pupils are from recommendation, so prices can stay realistic. There are a lot of folks out there who are new to the trade. They set up independently as soon as they qualify and go competing on price. They then find all the costs associated with running a driving school business and fold, only to be replaced by the next one. Unfortunately, these people ruin the business for those of us that are in it for the long term.

Costing out a tuition car is a tricky business with some weird anomalies. For a start, the car's initial value is not as critical as you would at first think. If you choose a reasonably desirable car, the chances are that you will suffer less depreciation when it is sold. Sometimes, by spending more initially and selling at the right mileage and age, you can hit the sweet spot and end up with a very good car for around £2500 - £3000 a year. Leasing a cheap and basic one will cost at the very least £3400 a year and that will come with a 30,000 mile limit, so you better not be busy.

Then you need to consider running costs. Fuel is the biggest one, but servicing, tyres, consumables, insurance and tax have to be considered.

How it seems to work out is that the less desirable, and thus the cheaper the car you start with, the higher the depreciation costs. This tends to balance out with a much more expensive car if the expensive one has good or better fuel costs. So you can end up having a Fabia vRS for the same sort of overall cost as a Fiesta 1.4tdci (the car I had previously).

But all this is splitting hairs. A couple of thousand up or down a year on car costs is less important than considering the overall package. First, if you spent up to 12 hours a day in your car, you could be pretty uncomfortable unless the seats are good. This makes every day unpleasant to save a few bob. Looking at the cheapest of the cheap, to the most expensive practical tuition car, you may be able to save £8 per day. However, when it gets to 6:00 and you have that last one of the day to fit in, if your legs feel like they want to get out and run and your back is aching, you will soon wish you had given up that £8. The Fabia vRS seats seem to be custom built for my ****. I am consistently comfortable on even the longest weeks tuition. When I had the Fester, I was always feeling like I had aching legs.

Next, image is important. In these days of highly insecure youngsters, a lot of the pupils want to be seen in something "acceptable". Cheap and anonymous Malaysian cars are not much cheaper than the Mini overall (just a couple of hundred pounds in it and the Mini is much cheaper as a one or three year prospect). However, having a decent and desirable car pulls the pupils in. This is my worry about the 500. I reckon it has a good balance of economy and price, but I worry how many of my lads would be worried about learning in it. An impromptu opinion poll over the last week shows that although I would not lose existing pupils, I may well struggle getting lads in as new customers. Part of the success of my recommendations is that the pupils like the car.

Of course, you can go really cheap and there are folks out there running about in old cars. However, they nearly always end up costing so much to keep going that they sap all the cash you would save for a new one. Reliability is critical too, older cars get flaky. Also, interiors get to look tired with age and miles. Your pupils, when asked about your service, will of course mention your old and tired looking car. You save some, you lose some.

Last and by no means least to a petrol head like me, the car has to have some redeeming features to make it nice to drive. The Punto, C2, Mini and 500 are all OK to good when it comes to driving them. The Mini is tops for dynamics. Balancing this in the sensible corner, the Fabia 1.4 Sport is OK to drive, but the dealer service is a known excellent and this is a big factor in the decision.

And if it is going to be a Hummer, better be the HMMWV original, not those POS chrome coated ponce wagons that got a Hummer badge now. Like to see the examiners face!

EDIT: Prius is not as good on fuel costs or saving the environment as my current car or any of my future choices. Also has the distinct disadvantage of being an automatic of sorts, so no good to teach in.

Chris

Just to pick up one point (though obviously agree with so much - and esp the 'image' factor) - as you say it has to be comfy. Nothing worse than 8 hours and feeling crippled when you get out :(

Just to pick up one point (though obviously agree with so much - and esp the 'image' factor) - as you say it has to be comfy. Nothing worse than 8 hours and feeling crippled when you get out :(

8 hours? I do more than that a day working part time:cool: An average day when I am busy will be in the car at 8:45am out by around 8:15pm.

Have to Say the Fabia vRS has been truly brilliant in respect of its comfort. It is so comfortable that it put my Omega CDX with its luxurious leather interior and big comfy seats into retirement. I used to use it for longer journeys (you would not want to drive a Fester Diesel on the motorway for 30 minutes let alone doing a 300 mile trip in it) but now the Fabia is the tool of choice for my travels around the country.

Chris

My niece is learning in a Cooper D (with the stop start engine). Hates it.

She finds the engine cutting out at lights very disconcerting.

Diesel Swift?

Tell her to use the button with an A and arrow on it in the centre above the gear stick that turns it off then?

Chris, you are so right about recommendations. All my friends recommended A, but he couldn't start me for 3 months, so I went with B, who turned out to be nearly useless: Examples:-

1) It took me nearly 2 lessons to move off smoothly in his car, because he couldn't teach clutch control properly.

2) After 4 lessons, I told him that his LHF wheel bearing was on the way out. My 8th lesson was cancelled by him, for a collapsed LHF wheel bearing.

At this point, A had a cancellation, and I was able to transfer.

Chris, you are so right about recommendations. All my friends recommended A, but he couldn't start me for 3 months, so I went with B, who turned out to be nearly useless: Examples:-

1) It took me nearly 2 lessons to move off smoothly in his car, because he couldn't teach clutch control properly.

2) After 4 lessons, I told him that his LHF wheel bearing was on the way out. My 8th lesson was cancelled by him, for a collapsed LHF wheel bearing.

At this point, A had a cancellation, and I was able to transfer.

From what I have seen, not all instructors are equal. Some are good, some average, some pretty poor. I think a lot of it is that some petrol heads love driving and cars, so know a lot about it, are IAM / RoSPA and possibly race trained as well, know how cars work and think a lot about driving and how to continuously improve upon it. There is the middle ground, who know enough to do a reasonable job. Then there are those that just do it because they needed a job.

At all levels, there is also the critical requirement that you can transfer what you know to the pupil of course. And it goes without saying that there is always the element of personality, you cannot get on with everybody all of the time. I had a minor falling out with a pupil last year. She had come from another instructor (due to a house move) and was upset that I let her get things wrong. The previous instructor had been over instructing her so she had never done anything by herself, so never learned to make simple decisions about junction approaches. I had to explain my method of letting her make the decisions and plan the situations. As soon as she understood this, her learning became very rapid and her confidence rose hugely. After that first lesson, she would never have recommended me. Now she would.

Chris

Road Tests: FIAT Bravo Eco Road Test

FIAT Bravo Eco Road Test

Road Tests: FIAT Bravo Eco Road Test

FIAT Bravo Eco Road Test

I really like it and with the deals one can get from brokers and a three year unlimited mile warranty, it is an obvious contender. I am really wary of the rear visibility issue though. It is truly bad and I would not want to get stuck with a car the DSA refused to take tests in. Still going to test drive one next week if I can though.

Chris

Was an interesting chat about this last night Chris, Still not sure about the Mini option.

I would chance the Fabia for another year, then there might be some more news on the vrs replacement.

My sig did not appear on my last post.

I really like it and with the deals one can get from brokers and a three year unlimited mile warranty, it is an obvious contender. I am really wary of the rear visibility issue though. It is truly bad and I would not want to get stuck with a car the DSA refused to take tests in. Still going to test drive one next week if I can though.

Chris

I doubt the dsa will remove a "standard" saloon car from the test eligibilty because of rear vision... lets face it, you can do the test in a van with no rear side windows if you wish... they have only done it with convertibles so far (because of the specific view from the examiners side of the car) ..... and although the electronic handbrakes are banned, the "hill holder" in the fiats with ESP is still acceptable (although it shouldn't every come into use if they drive properly )

as for the pupils reversing with rear visibility, there are ways around it if you don't follow DSA procedures... for example (as I'm sure you already know) you shouldn't use the nearside door mirror for left reverse, but look behind you, now this isn't always practical in some cars... for example, I'm teching a pupil in his own car (toyota avensis saloon) and he was complaining he couldn't see anything useful from where I was telling him to look, and as I haven't reversed this particular car i had a go (and I'm only small) and sure enough, i could see absolutley nothing when tyring to left reverse while looking through the rear, so we brought the nearside doormirror into play (and the door mirrors on the fiats offer MUCH more visibility than the vRS, you can set them up to help with reversing, while still being able to see everything you should when changing lanes to the left)... and he still looks back enough to satisfy DSA regs, but can now see where he's reversing....

no biggie really

edit: although I haven't driven the bravo, so it may be worse than I imagine! lol...

Was an interesting chat about this last night Chris, Still not sure about the Mini option.

I would chance the Fabia for another year, then there might be some more news on the vrs replacement.

Hi Mike

It is a possibility, however, the cold light of business needs to be shone onto the decision. The Fabia over the next year will cost:

£6924 fuel

£2500 depreciation (a car past the 150,000 mile mark is hard to sell).

£1300 servicing (5 services plus a cam belt change)

£300 console bushes. (The last ones lasted around 70,000 so due another set before the year is out).

£450 tyres (6 T1R £75/ corner fitted)

So a total of £11477 assuming nothing at all goes wrong with it. I have not included the price of brake discs which will need doing F/R before the year is out too.

For the Mini

£4714 fuel

£2250 depreciation (based on current prices of used Cooper D on private sale)

£358 servicing (TLC packs for 80,000 miles / 45000 miles expected)

£192 tyres (4 Toyo CF1 £48 / corner when the OE wear out).

£528 interest if I leave the cash in the bank for 12 months less tax @ 40%.

So a total of £8042 if I buy a Mini Cooper D, my most expensive option in capital terms, but possibly cheapest overall.

At a difference of £3435 for 12 months, it starts to make sense that I need to order a car soon. The Fabia will look good inside after a valet, but another 45,000 on it will make it pretty tired inside IMO. Currently, the Fabia is running brilliantly and should sell well. Another thought, if Skoda do get their finger out and give us a vRS next year, my one will lose value further still in theory.

Thinking about it further, the indications are that the new vRS will be a petrol too. What VAG badly need is a 1.6 diesel engine producing around 110bhp. This seems to be a configuration that gives acceptable performance with good economy.

I doubt the dsa will remove a "standard" saloon car from the test eligibilty because of rear vision... lets face it' date=' you can do the test in a van with no rear side windows if you wish... they have only done it with convertibles so far (because of the specific view from the examiners side of the car) ..... and although the electronic handbrakes are banned, the "hill holder" in the fiats with ESP is still acceptable (although it shouldn't every come into use if they drive properly )

as for the pupils reversing with rear visibility, there are ways around it if you don't follow DSA procedures... for example (as I'm sure you already know) you shouldn't use the nearside door mirror for left reverse, but look behind you, now this isn't always practical in some cars... for example, I'm teching a pupil in his own car (toyota avensis saloon) and he was complaining he couldn't see anything useful from where I was telling him to look, and as I haven't reversed this particular car i had a go (and I'm only small) and sure enough, i could see absolutley nothing when tyring to left reverse while looking through the rear, so we brought the nearside doormirror into play (and the door mirrors on the fiats offer MUCH more visibility than the vRS, you can set them up to help with reversing, while still being able to see everything you should when changing lanes to the left)... and he still looks back enough to satisfy DSA regs, but can now see where he's reversing....

no biggie really

edit: although I haven't driven the bravo, so it may be worse than I imagine! lol...[/quote']

Hi Dave

The Bravo is pretty limited for rear visibility. It has a high waistline at the rear and a letterbox of a rear screen. I am sure my pupils could manage with it, but it will make them less likely to see something coming up when they are doing a manoeuvre. On the plus side it looks like a much more practical car to own than the Mini (whose boot space is about the same as my MR2), should be nice on long journeys, touring due to tall gearing and I have seen very good deals through brokers, so that takes the edge of what will be shocking depreciation. It is a shame they cannot put the 1.6 eco running gear in the GP. Definitely giving it a test drive though.

Chris

Ok, so had a drive in a couple of prospective cars today.

Using the Fabia as the benchmark:

Citroen C2 VTS Diesel

The interior is a bit low rent when compared to the Fabia. Lots of little switches and the seats are relatively unsupportive but liveable. Fuel economy around the test drive was around 10% better than the Fabia would have given me.

Controls feel is OK generally, things are smooth and positive in isolation, perhaps a little wobbly compared to the Fabia. The cabin looks like it will stay reasonably well put together.

Practicality wise, an occasional 4 seater with room for a weeks shopping in the boot, but not much else.

Driving it is fun to an extent. The streering is direct and accurate the car turns in pretty well, helped by the short wheelbase. The brakes are a let down. This has to be the most over servo assisted system I have ever encountered. Lots of practice could give the driver the necessary skills to get progressive stopping, but the range of pedal pressure needed from gentle braking to full on emergency stop is almost nothing.

Pushing on in cornering speed a bit and it is evident that the chassis wants to play. The front end locks onto line well and resists understeer when power is applied, giving the scope to get the rear end swinging a few degrees to get it working. Just as it starts to do this the ESP kicks in and ruins the fun. I got it triggered today without really pushing. Intervention was subtle, but it kind of ruins the flow of the car.

Living in it? Well the ride is good, the seats acceptable (after the fantastic vRS seats everything else is less good). Noise is pretty well suppressed around town. On the dual carriageways, there is a distinct lack of 6th gear meaning cruising is not the cars natural element, though it does a fair job of it. Engine noise would become tiresome on the long motorway journeys. The sound system sounds cuppy and fails to impress. Rake and reach steering adjustment and a fair range of seat positions are ok, but very tall drivers may feel a bit cramped.

Mini Cooper D:

The interior is a dogs dinner of tacky looking switches trying to look impressive. The speedo is not big enough FFS its size is measured in hectares, but it is surprisingly less than a model of clarity to read. The seats in the one I drove were pretty supportive, but could do with tighter bolsters given the cornering force the car can generate. Fuel economy around the test drive was around 22% better than the Fabia would have given me, the difference even greater in urban traffic and side road use. This bodes well.

Controls are very well judged for weighting and progression. This is an area where the price starts to make sense. Indicator and wiper columns are of the switch and centre type, intuitive to use on the indicator side, a bit busy on the wiper side.

Practicality wise, another occasional 4 seater with minimal luggage space. Not as much luggage room as the already minimal C2.

Driving it is where you find out why it costs more. Ride / handling compromise is very well judged. Damping is super tight without being harsh in any way. Even on 17" RFT tyres the ride was good on all but the most rutted or surfaces. The steering is quick and super accurate, the front end stays pinned even with really aggressive turn in, the rear comes easily into play to assist. it is adjustable on the throttle, but at low revs don't bother as the little 1.6 diesel suffers quite a bit of lag. Work the gears and keep it on the boil though and you can cover ground at a pretty indecent pace. You feel connected to the thing in a very intimate way. Steering feel is strangely less than I was expecting, but still a long way ahead of the Fabia. Brakes are natural feeling and responsive. Of note also is that the clutch seems to have a very long travel through the bite point making it a particularly easy drive for learners.

Living in it. The engine noise is very well suppressed and gearing makes cruising a quiet affair, maybe a fair bit quieter than the Fabia in terms of both tyre and engine noise. Ahead of the C2 certainly. Seat comfort is not quite as good as the Fabia, but the sport seat can be specified with passenger height adjustment and it is better than the C2 in general. Rake and reach steering adjustment and a good range of seat positions mean pretty much a good driving position for learners of all sizes. The sound system is a bit of a let down in a car of this price, but acceptable. The controls for it are, like much of the rest of the switchgear, fiddly and not intuitive.

Chris

I've just seen a new shape Focus ST being used as an instructor car! It was orange... suppose that would help people spot the learner driver at least!

I've just seen a new shape Focus ST being used as an instructor car! It was orange... suppose that would help people spot the learner driver at least!

hhmmm must be something "not right" with that..... driving instructor insurance will only go up to about group 15, and the ST is 20 isn't it? a TDCI with a body kit and wheels maybe?

an instructor friend of mine was going to get the golf with the 170bhp twincharged engine (the GT) and no insurance company would touch him... (we have about 5 to choose from in the country that cater for ADI's) as the group was to high, so basically an impossible vehical to use as a driving school car...

would be cool if you were 17 though and said "I'm learning in a focus ST" lol...

I drove past it whlie it was parked on my side of the road in a layby. It was the right (horrible) shade of orange, right wheels, and I checked my mirror as I went by and it was the right grille. I 'pose it could be a kev'd up lower model... and like you say, regarding insurance, I'm surpised to see one being used as such. If it isn't a real one then it fooled me!

I drove past it whlie it was parked on my side of the road in a layby. It was the right (horrible) shade of orange, right wheels, and I checked my mirror as I went by and it was the right grille. I 'pose it could be a kev'd up lower model... and like you say, regarding insurance, I'm surpised to see one being used as such. If it isn't a real one then it fooled me!

There is a fair bit of this sort of thing going on. Couple of guys round here have Fiests ST "diesels":snail::grin_no: Why does shakecan no longer work?

Given the fuel cost to run a 1.8 Focus petrol would be getting on for £11,000 per year based on my two days with one, I would hate to imaging what a real ST would cost to run.

Chris

I thought the orange was "ST only"? The only way of gettting it on a lower spec model was to respray a brand-new car.

I thought the orange was "ST only"? The only way of gettting it on a lower spec model was to respray a brand-new car.

It is possible I suppose. There was a guy round here with a Seat Leon Cupra for a while but I have not seen it about for a year or more.

The insurance companies are a bit conservative with what they will and will not cover. I had raised eyebrows trying to ensure the Fabia vRS. They did it though.

Chris

Somewhat predictable for a learner driver car, but not been mentioned on here...how about a Corsa?

Had one for a few days as a hire car (1.4 petrol SXi - no experience of the diesels but they look decent on paper) and I was surprised at how nice it was to drive and how comfortable it was. Not sure if the pillars would be an issue...it does appeal to the yoof market though.

Rob.