Wheel Alignment the big con!

[mannyo]

can anyone help my fabia vrs pulls to left , had wheel aligment yesterday made no differance. back in the summer replaced both front arms rear bshes ?. if i leave it will it couse damage to car.

Take it back to somewhere and get the tracking done properly by someone who knows what they are doing.

Other possible things include worn bushes or a dodgy tyre.

[wheels-inmotion]

Can you see any problems arising from the above figures?

I am probably going to bring the rear up by 10-20mm in the near future.

Not for the modified chassis... don't forget you can afford a lower camber with uprated coils since there's less dynamic gains..... normally?

[wheels-inmotion]

can anyone help my fabia vrs pulls to left , had wheel aligment yesterday made no differance. back in the summer replaced both front arms rear bshes ?. if i leave it will it couse damage to car.

It's probable you have a camber or castor issue "wheel alignment" will not see this... On your car these angles are fixed but it's possible to relocate the crossmember in order to optimise the positions.

[wheels-inmotion]

pulling to one side is usually down to tracking

That's what the tyre industry have lead you to believe, tracking or "wheel alignment" is a shared angle, both front wheels own the position so it cannot make the car pull.

[cjb]

can anyone help my fabia vrs pulls to left , had wheel aligment yesterday made no differance. back in the summer replaced both front arms rear bshes ?. if i leave it will it couse damage to car.

Check for a dragging brake on the side it pulls to, and check your tyre pressures.

[KenONeill]

It's probable you have a camber or castor issue "wheel alignment" will not see this... On your car these angles are fixed but it's possible to relocate the crossmember in order to optimise the positions.

I'm thinking start with tyre pressures and look for uneven wear or a wrongly installed directional or asymmetric, then check for brake drag, then a full alignment, suspecting a significant disparity in caster angle or a bent arm.

[wheels-inmotion]

No longer always true, particularly in extra-urban situations.

The drift left thing is a design feature, to take you away from other traffic if you're incapacitated whilst driving.

Ken this is in no way demeaning, derogatory or trying to belittle you but that comment is absolutely incorrect, i have read it many times before and wonder how you came to this conclusion?

If it were a design feature wouldn't this diversion take you into the nearest tree or bus stop instead.

[KenONeill]

Ken this is in no way demeaning, derogatory or trying to belittle you but that comment is absolutely incorrect, i have read it many times before and wonder how you came to this conclusion?

If it were a design feature wouldn't this diversion take you into the nearest tree or bus stop instead.

"i have read it many times before " too, usually from what appear to be reasonably authoritative sources, and it's borne out by careful experimentation on a variety of makes, models and roads. If you have actual evidence to the contrary I'm prepared to be proven wrong.

[wheels-inmotion]

"i have read it many times before " too, usually from what appear to be reasonably authoritative sources, and it's borne out by careful experimentation on a variety of makes, models and roads. If you have actual evidence to the contrary I'm prepared to be proven wrong.

Proving wrong reads harsh, that's not what i'm trying to do.

Historically the target data insists on absolute symmetry from the Geometry calibration, the only time this will differ is on high end marques where a camber/ castor stagger is used to belay the road crown, all this does is extend the "eventual drift" all cars experience due to the crown.

[KenONeill]

Proving wrong reads harsh, that's not what i'm trying to do.

Historically the target data insists on absolute symmetry from the Geometry calibration, the only time this will differ is on high end marques where a camber/ castor stagger is used to belay the road crown, all this does is extend the "eventual drift" all cars experience due to the crown.

See, I know that's wrong, because actually crowned roads are quite rare and getting rarer.

I also know that it's not just drifting down a crown because there's one of the stretches of straight I use for testing that's not only not crowned, but is actually slightly sloped so that all the runoff gathers on one side, and even when going the other way cars still drift left, actually going upslope.

[wheels-inmotion]

See, I know that's wrong, because actually crowned roads are quite rare and getting rarer.

I also know that it's not just drifting down a crown because there's one of the stretches of straight I use for testing that's not only not crowned, but is actually slightly sloped so that all the runoff gathers on one side, and even when going the other way cars still drift left, actually going upslope.

Crown/ slope whatever, both offer the same pneumatic distortion, i fail to see your argument?

Geometric stagger to belay the "slope" exists like it or not. If you have a car that rides the "slope" (opposite camber) then i advise some chassis attention.

[vRSy]

Can local wheel alignment garages adjust your steering wheel if it is off centre. My car isnt pulling off to any direction or suffering vibration, but since lowering(even after they aligned the car) the wheel is off centre quite a bit.

[ultra_joel88]

^ I had the same after fitting coilovers, yes you need to have it done.

The figures I posted were after fitting coilovers, as you can see it was all off.

On the Fabia only the Toe is adjustable so that was done, and the steering wheel was put right. Still pulls left a bit though.

Cost me £28 for the laser alignment and toe adjustment.

[vRSy]

so it can definately be changed then, i had it rechecked in kwik fit before i came back to germany and they said they wouldnt be able to change it much as the tracking was ok. Really annoying though so i want it fixed.

what is it they will do to solve the situation, just adjust the track rods or is it the steering rack that will need adjusting

[ultra_joel88]

Dont go to KwickFook

Go to your nearest laser alignment dealer

found here

www.AlignMyCar.co.uk

[vRSy]

im based in germahy so its not that easy. do the Vag dealerships have the ability to laser align cars i could always take it to them if they do

[wheels-inmotion]

im based in germahy so its not that easy. do the Vag dealerships have the ability to laser align cars i could always take it to them if they do

Yes they have, just be a little carefull with the price though.... Get a "worst case" figure up front.

[KenONeill]

Simon, the drive from the steering wheel into the column is done using a splined shaft (nowadays covered by the airbag). Typically, this shaft has about 20 or 30 "teeth" on it, so you won't always get the wheel dead-centre by re-splining it.

[riph72]

Simon, the drive from the steering wheel into the column is done using a splined shaft (nowadays covered by the airbag). Typically, this shaft has about 20 or 30 "teeth" on it, so you won't always get the wheel dead-centre by re-splining it.

I had this issue with my MX-5. Steering wheel was off-centre, but moving from one notch to the next (the smallest adjustment) meant the steering wheel was now 10deg the other way!

I had to "recentre the steering rack" (with a little guidance from wheels-inmotion), wasn't difficult to do really but took a few attempts to get the amount of adjustment right. Basically it involved making a slight adjustment to the tie-rods on both front wheels.

I'm no expert but I would guess it's the same for most/all cars?

[NikBorton]

AlignMyCar lists

The Wheel Alignment & Ball Joint Centre

Unit 2

Forth Street / Clide Street

Bootle

LIVERPOOL

L20 8NL

Tel: 0151 933 5111

I had a full 4-wheel alignment here this morning on their Hunter. AlignMyCar shows the wrong postcode, I corrected it above. Nice guys, more than happy for me to stand nearby watching and to explain and discuss the car and the process. They did the pre-check and "before" measurement before deciding on cost, which ended up as £85+VAT. It took just over 45 minutes, the approximate time I was quoted on the phone (yesterday! I don't think they're very busy at the moment).

I got a printout but can't plug my scanner in at the moment - basic result is: MUCH BETTER! Almost no pull (a hint of a drift that I can't write off as road camber), very slight steering wheel turn, lighter, more responsive steering that doesn't fight me when turning across the centre, with better road feel. They reckon there's nothing bent or broken, not enough to worry about or notice anyway.

The remaining error, given the results, I'm going to put down (for now) as mostly the rear tyres, the left of which has less tread, and the right had a very slow puncture for ages so the wall is a bit softer. That and they've been on for 8+ months with the geometry screwed up. I'll probably get it re-checked there after new tyres and whatever else needs doing at the next service (I'll be getting the garage to pay special attention to bushes and so on, plus bearings and brakes, because it's been really quite rumbly and knocky this month).

All the changes are improvements towards the dead centre on the screen. Unfortunately, the front camber and caster isn't adjustable on the E36 M3, so they couldn't tune the slight bends out. He actually recommended I take a file to the strut mount holes so I could adjust the camber myself!

The results (. obviously meaning "degree", which I don't know how to type):

Before      Camber Caster Toe   After Camber Caster Toe
Front left  -0.54  7.26   0.09        -0.55  7.30   0.06
Front right -1.13  7.30   0.09        -1.12  7.35   0.05

Total toe 0.18(0.11), Steer ahead 0.00(0.00) Before(after)

Rear left   -1.26  -.--   0.13        -1.48  -.--   0.17
Rear right  -1.38  -.--   0.24        -1.45  -.--   0.16

Total toe 0.37(0.32), Thrust angle -0.06(0.00) Before(after)

That ended up much longer than I intended. Sorry. I'm pretty happy with the results though!

Oddly, the bottom of the sheet says "The steering wheel was not level before the alignment. Toe adjustments are required." Does that mean, given the success, I should just get the wheel straightened the degree or two it's still out?

Edited 24 February, 2009 by NikBorton

[wheels-inmotion]

Good news the steering straight now, although the before/ after values seem very close.

The explain the comment on the bottom of the printout... During the initial measurements the machine is disinterested in the steering wheels position, it's only after the chassis has been measured and the before positions locked that the technician can see the steering is offline, so he manually comments on the steering position to justify a correction at the chassis.

[NikBorton]

Hm. This isn't good. Today - at motorway speeds - the steering wheel position actually seems worse than it was before; at one point, I had the wheel straight going round a gentle left-hander. I checked the tyre pressures, they were all spot on (well, according to the petrol station machine. Equal at least!)

It's much smoother (no vibrations through the steering wheel or pedals) and feel around corners seems a bit better. The pull is improved but definitely not eradicated.

Time to start looking at bearings, brake dragging, that kind of thing? Or could it be a deception based on the wheel needing removing and putting back on straight?

Edited 25 February, 2009 by NikBorton

[KenONeill]

It's impossible to be certain from that, but I know there are some motorway corners which are "superelevated" and designed so that you can drive round them "hands off" at a certain speed.

[wheels-inmotion]

Hm. This isn't good. Today - at motorway speeds - the steering wheel position actually seems worse than it was before; at one point, I had the wheel straight going round a gentle left-hander. I checked the tyre pressures, they were all spot on (well, according to the petrol station machine. Equal at least!)

It's much smoother (no vibrations through the steering wheel or pedals) and feel around corners seems a bit better. The pull is improved but definitely not eradicated.

Time to start looking at bearings, brake dragging, that kind of thing? Or could it be a deception based on the wheel needing removing and putting back on straight?

Before you do anything else can you move the front wheels/tyres side-to-side then test again.

[NikBorton]

I don't think I can; they're definitely rotational so a simple wheel swap won't work, and although they're symmetrical I don't know if they can be refitted the other way round. They're almost new as well! I hope they're not knackered already...

It's bizarre, it goes from "almost right" to "massively wrong", even within the space of a couple of hundred yards.