When I ordered my Superb, I went through the options list with the salesman. There wasn't much one could add and I queried the separately listed Hill Hold.

I told the salesman that I have had more than a dozen cars with automatic and a Hill Hold was always integral with the transmission. I added that I would never buy a car without a Hill Hold. He assured me that the listing was for manual cars and mine would have a Hill Hold as standard. He was wrong.

I found this out the hard way after a week by almost backing into a car at the lights. I have now been told that it cannot be fitted retrospectively. After checking with my solicitor, I have told the dealer that I do not want the car as it is and I have asked either for an identical car with a Hill Hold or a refund.

I would be interested in your comments but most of all, if you are considering your spec., bear this in mind.

The car is fine but I am uncomfortable driving it and I am certainly not about to alter my driving style after over 50 years.

I told the salesman that I have had more than a dozen cars with automatic and a Hill Hold was always integral with the transmission. I added that I would never buy a car without a Hill Hold.

For manual cars, it was first seen in 1936 (Studebaker invention), which held the brakes as long as the clutch pedal was fully depressed.

I strongly doubt that each of your former automatics had "integral hill hold," particularly the early ones. What used to happen was that transmission creep balanced the weight of the car on some hills. As creep became more of an issue and was pretty well sorted, hill hold as an electronic option for automatics was introduced, as far as I can recall around 8 years ago. Mercedes certainly fitted it to some of their models shortly afterwards. It electronically operated the braking system, which is what the Skoda version does, I suspect, hence must be fitted during the build.

He assured me that the listing was for manual cars and mine would have a Hill Hold as standard. He was wrong.

I found this out the hard way after a week by almost backing into a car at the lights. I have now been told that it cannot be fitted retrospectively. After checking with my solicitor' date=' I have told the dealer that I do not want the car as it is and I have asked either for an identical car with a Hill Hold or a refund. I would be interested in your comments but most of all, if you are considering your spec., bear this in mind.[/quote']

He was wrong in stating that hill hold is for manual transmissions only, but I've also heard another dealer say the same, so perhaps this view has been passed down from on high - that is certainly worth investigating.

You have had the car that you ordered delivered. Your specifications were followed and your choices noted. Your claim, if you have one, is against the competence (possibly the negligence) of the dealer's advice which led you to those choices. Time to read the small print - I think that you would struggle to win such a case, although it might be worth a try. I certainly wouldn't get my hopes up, as the usual "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware) principle applies to returns, as well as to the condition of property.

The car is fine but I am uncomfortable driving it and I am certainly not about to alter my driving style after over 50 years.

Why not? Holding a car on the automatic transmission on a hill has never been accepted as good practice, nor is it accepted as such today. That's why hill hold was invented - to prevent strain on the transmission - auto or manual.

I always apply the handbrake when stopped on a hill and have no trouble co-ordinating its release and the forward motion of the car. Since I suspect that you will not have your car replaced by the dealer, if you're going to keep it then you either need to use the handbrake, or operate the footbrake with your left foot of hill starts.

Ray

Ray, I wrote a lengthy reply to your mail. Did you get it?

Perhaps I was not logged in as I do not see my reply posted, so I will write again.

Thank you for your interesting reply Ray

My first car was bought in Canada in '56 and as it happens, was a 53 Studebaker V8 Commander. It had a Hill Holder as it was called then but I don't know if it was standard on new cars.

Since I came back to this country in '63 I have had over a dozen cars , mostly BMWs and Mercedes. I have never specified a Hill Hold but they were certainly all equipped with it.

I cannot agree that I have the car I ordered. My requirement was made crystal clear and it was the salesman's interpretation that was wrong. And he represented the dealership. As for a possible action, my solicitor thinks the case is sound under the Sale of Goods Act but I doubt the dealer or Skoda would welcome the publicity. We shall see.

No one who drove in Canada uses a hand brake because of the danger of freezing on. I never do and leave my car in Park, I have a friend in Ottawa who always does so at the lights but I can't see myself doing that. And there is a quirk in the Superb, when you use your left foot on the brake, there is a lag as the engine takes hold. I find it disconcerting but I don't know why it happens.

Why should I have to learn new styles of driving at this stage because of the dealers error?

Let me throw my two cents in.

As Argee has stated above, there is absolutely no way you could have had any sort of Hill Hold system on your car prior to around 10 years ago. Even now, according to my information, the system is provided as standart only with top models like Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7-Series and Audi A8. Yes, one might get an impression that most automatic-equipped cars have the system, but this only because of the way the automatic gearbox operates.

When on even road (not going up- or downhill) you take your foot off the brake, the car begins rolling. This happens because the hydraulic converter (I might be using the wrong word since English is not my mother tongue) is transmitting some % of the torque to the wheels. This same effect keeps the car from rolling backwards when facing uphill.

Regarding your comment that "when ou use your left foot on the brake, there is a lag as the engine takes hold". This is done intentionally to avoid a nasty situation: if you notice an obstacle on the road and rush to stop you car, you might accidentally press both pedals at the same time. Should the engine respond to the gas pedal, the braking distance might be long enough to kill you. To death. So now, on most modern cars, whenever brake pedal is being pressed, the gas pedal cuts off.

------------------------------------

The saleperson should have known this. I am an ex-salesman myself at my country's premier TOYOTA dealership, and we all have extensive product training in order to minimize the chance of miss-informing the customer.

I doubt you can do anything about your car now. There is realistically no way one can prove the act of misrepresentation during discussion of the order, and the order documents (whichever you have) clearly state that you have never ordered a Hill Hold system.

I cannot agree that I have the car I ordered. My requirement was made crystal clear and it was the salesman's interpretation that was wrong.

I can't imagine a dealer taking a verbal-only order, without a deposit. You must, surely, have signed an order form, Bill? From what you say, it would not have included Hill Hold as an ordered option, hence you've got the car you ordered. I can't see any way round that initial order confirmation slip. "Buyer beware" applies again - it's up to the buyer to ensure they've ordered correctly.

I'm not unsympathetic to your situation, nor am I taking sides in what I say. I'm just putting my realistic interpretation on the events you describe. Bear in mind that I do not stand to make any money out of this post. I'd definitely get a second, unbiased, opinion before instructing a Solicitor. Consider your local Trading Standards Officer as a starting point. Good luck!

Ray.

I tried the Trading Standards dept. first off. They said they were limited to amounts below £5000.00

I have a VW Passat with the DSG gearbox and I think your main source of disappointment is that it's not an automatic as we generally understand them. The automatic cars I grew up with had torque convertors and you basically couldn't roll backwards with it in D or any of the forward gears. Likewise, you couldn't tow it on the driven wheels because you would damage the torque convertor.

The DSG isn't an automatic, it's a manual where a computer looks at the drive-by-wire throttle signal and engages one of two clutches to move you away. Once moving the non-driven clutch preselects the next gear ready for the shift, which is super-fast and ultra-smooth. I think what you refer to in your post as 'lag' is the delay between you lifting your foot off the brake and the car starting to creep forward like a torque convertor automatic does. The torque convertor is permanently driven so it's pulling against the brakes all the time it's in D, but the DSG effectively depresses the clutch pedal until you put your foot on the throttle so it 'pauses' which I think is pretty scary at junctions and roundabouts.

My Passat has both Hill Hold and the automatic handbrake release which make each other redundant as if the automatic handbrake release works, you don't need hill hold and the hill hold means you don't need to apply the handbrake while driving. Unfortunately, the electronic handbrake isn't available on the Superb either as it's quite good once you get used to it, but apparently it can lock on and effectively immobilise the car, so I have that to look forward to in the future:rolleyes:

Anyway, I hope Skoda and the dealer sort you out without too much grief.

Regarding your comment that "when ou use your left foot on the brake, there is a lag as the engine takes hold". This is done intentionally to avoid a nasty situation: if you notice an obstacle on the road and rush to stop you car, you might accidentally press both pedals at the same time. Should the engine respond to the gas pedal, the braking distance might be long enough to kill you. To death. So now, on most modern cars, whenever brake pedal is being pressed, the gas pedal cuts off.

I don't doubt what you say, but in all three of our cars (a DSG VW Passat, manual Fabia vRS and a Tiptronic Porsche Boxster) I can depress the brake and rev the engine, in or out of gear/drive, so the throttle must be disengaged only when the car is moving with the footbrakes on, which isn't what Billhum is describing. The DSG desn't creep like a normal automatic, it definitely pauses before it pulls away, which is somewhat disconcerting when a huge truck is bearing down on you and you could easily have moved off in a manual or normal automatic.

I definitely recommend anyone considering a DSG car takes it on a long drive through Milton Keynes (loads of roundabouts) to make sure they're comfy with the hesitant pulling away.

I tried the Trading Standards dept. first off. They said they were limited to amounts below £5000.00

OK, fair enough, but didn't they have advice? CAB? What about your original order form, Bill? I think that's where the whole crux of the matter lies. Enough from me, good luck with the outcome.

Ray.

I drive a 2006 Audi A4 2,0TDi MultiTronic, which is another transmission type - Continuously Variable Transmission. I truly consider this to be the "best" in terms of smoothness and reaction time.

When I'm standing still with the lever in P or N, I press the brake pedal, press the gas while holding the brake, and the engine only revs up about 1200rpms...

did you test drive a car with the DSG on it ? if so did you not notice it rolling backwards ?

I drive a 2006 Audi A4 2,0TDi MultiTronic, which is another transmission type - Continuously Variable Transmission. I truly consider this to be the "best" in terms of smoothness and reaction time.[/Quote]

I had one of those - a 2005. It ate 3 belts in 2 years. The Audi dealer bought it back. I believe they have fixed it now by limiting the torque and/or fitting better belts. I do agree when it was running it was excellent, but again, it was a slightly unusual experience as flooring the throttle did nothing for 3 or 4 seconds then it rocketed forward, but gently depressing it gave very smooth rapid pickup.

When I'm standing still with the lever in P or N, I press the brake pedal, press the gas while holding the brake, and the engine only revs up about 1200rpms...

Again, I have no idea what they may have done to protect the engine and/or transmission and/or driver, but none of my cars have that characteristic. In fact, it has been claimed that the fastest off-the-line accelleration in an automatic is gained by holding the car on the footbrake while revving the engine, then lifting off the footbrake. At which point the car takes off in a hurry! But that's not to say it's good for the car.

WJA, they use the chain, actually, not the belts...

I've had mine for almost 3 years now (bought it new in Feb. '06), and done 58000 miles with it now. Not a single glitch in the gearbox. I spent a few extra money on the paddle shift buttons on the steering wheel, but I only "played" with them for around 2 months after the purchase. The box provides nice response in all situations.

The electronics is faulty though...

Sorry for offtopic. :-)

. In fact, it has been claimed that the fastest off-the-line accelleration in an automatic is gained by holding the car on the footbrake while revving the engine, then lifting off the footbrake. At which point the car takes off in a hurry! But that's not to say it's good for the car.

I know someone who did that in his 3.0 Capri, the scene was set for this 20 yr old, the lights were red, as they dropped to green he glanced across the strip at his fierce rival Mrs Teasmaid who was on her way to the post office to get her pension, her Hush Puppies gripped the pavement with great bite, his foot now removed from the brake pedal while maxing the already down acc pedal slid to one side, the tyres biting into the tarmac....and BANG!!! frickin propshaft snapped dinnit

Thanks for all the comments.

What is considered the best method of starting on a hill?

Learn to use the handbrake?

Move my right foot from the brake to the gas as quickly as I can? I can't use my left foot because of the engine lag.

Put it into Park?

Sadly, Bill, I don't think you really have a leg to stand on when it comes to rejecting the car.

Certainly, I would agree that the knowledge of most dealers when it comes to the new Superb is patchy. It took me a long time, and the help of our Skoda fleet business manager, to get all the answers I needed prior to ordering the car.

I agree that your dealer should have been able to give you better advice, but likewise, you have a responsibility to ensure that what you are ordering will satisfy your needs. Did you test drive the car prior to ordering? If one wasn't available, did you test drive a car with DSG to make sure that this transmission suited you?

Long before I placed an order, I went around test driving other cars from the VAG stable so that I could experience various different engine and transmission combinations to see if they delivered the kind of performance and driving style I wanted.

As for not being able to retrofit the hill hold, then from a technical standpoint, that's complete cobblers. If you have an Elegance version of the Superb, then all of the hardware is probably already on the car. The hill hold is simply a function of the software in the ESP controller. It takes inputs from a gyroscope that is part of the satnav 'dead reckoning' system (this determines the incline), the brake pedal switch, and the handbrake switch. If the incline is greater than 5 degrees, the handbrake is off and the brake pedal is pressed, then the system engages. The ESP controller then brakes the wheels for approx. 2 seconds after the foot brake is released. After this time, the car will begin to roll back. The moment the ESP system begins to detect forward movement, then the hill hold disengages. I'm guessing that there is probably a different ESP controller part for cars with hill hold, versus cars without.

The real problem here is that the factory doesn't want the dealer to know how to retrofit hill hold. There are a number of safety concerns here, like who's liable if the retrofitted system malfunctions, the car rolls back, and somone gets squashed? Or, what happens if the ESP system malfunctions and you have a big smash as a result?

I hope you can find a way to get what you want, but I'm not convinced that your dealer has any obligation to provide you with another car. You might be better off trying to get them to help you as a goodwill gesture, rather than pursuing a course of legal action.

Bagpuss.

Thank you Bagpuss for your useful reply. I ordered the car before it was available for test and I drove one later but only round the block and on a level road.

My experience with other cars mislead me in thinking this one was not different.

But I will certainly try the approach you suggest.

I understand. Test drives these days are often short and accompanied by the salesman.

How the hell can you really tell what a car is like after a 20 minute drive?

I have to say that I really didn't think much of the DSG the first couple of times I drove cars with it. It was only after I had a DSG loan car for a month that I really appreciated it. I ended up going for the manual, but that was more down to price and emissions. If I could have afforded the DSG, then I would have gone for it.

One thing I would say is that the transition from stationary to moving, even in a hill, should be almost seamless with the DSG. You can't simply let your foot off the break and expect it to hold the car, but very gentle throttle will let you get away quite easily.

If you are seeing a lot of lag between releasing the brake and the clutches engaging, then there could be something wrong. My loan car developed a DSG fault, and one of the systems was a significant lag between pressing the throttle and the car actually starting to move forward. In the end, they replaced the whole gearbox.

If you are happy with all other aspects of the car, I would suggest you persevere with the DSG. It took me about two weeks to really get used to it, and to adapt my driving style to suit it. I had a bigger adjustment to make, as I had only ever driven manual cars. Once I did, I really enjoyed driving it.

Bagpuss.

I still think that you have a pretty good chance at getting something from them.

You went into the dealers to make your order... asked about an option that was there and were told that you didn't need the option as yours would already have it fitted!

Then when it isn't on the order form you signed you don't think anything of it as you have just been told that your car will have it as standard anyway... doesn't sound right to me.

Slightly offtopic again, but would anyone explain me why do you think about emissions? Does tax vary from for different emission amounts?

Because where I live, those g / km is the last figure we look at, if at all...

Is the car 'fit for purpose' as ordered? Unfortunately yes as hill hold was NOT specified, an expensive error however misleading the salesman was. If it were me I would not relent as it seems to be 1 of the major reasons you purchased that particular model, I would return the car to the dealers with a letter stating your intentions to seek further avice before making your decision. The SMMT UK motor industry Consumer advice, Regulation and Compliance Unit, Customer Services Committee, Mechanical Breakdown Insurance Committee, Vehicle Safety Defects has some very helpful advice on their website, well worth a read!

Thank you Supacabby, you have given me new heart.

It seems to me that I have done the right thing in that a) I consulted a Solicitor and I have written to the MD of the dealership rejecting the vehicle.

Armed with this guidance I will visit the dealership as soon as possible and show them the relevant clauses.

Edited 21 November, 200817 yr by billhum
Spelling error

WJA, they use the chain, actually, not the belts...

I bow to your greater pedantry, but you'll have to forgive me as the German language description of the parts described them as drive belts, not chains. And I was living in Bayern at the time. The German technicians talked about belts, but you are correct, they are more like chains or necklaces than the gigantic elastic bands used in the original DAF/Volvo cars that used these CVT gearboxes.

CVT is definitely the optimal conceptual solution, but it's still awaiting the optimal engineering solution in my opinion. A conventional automatic is still my weapon of choice - Mitsubishi/Porsche and Mercedes Benz being the best of those in my experience, although the current 6-speed Peugeot/Ford unit is superb.

Slightly offtopic again, but would anyone explain me why do you think about emissions? Does tax vary from for different emission amounts?

Because where I live, those g / km is the last figure we look at, if at all...

My car is provided to me by my employer. The government taxes me for this benefit, and the amount of tax is based on the CO2 emissions. The lower the emissions, the less tax I pay.