Superb, DSG and Hill Hold

[Supacabby]

Thank you Supacabby, you have given me new heart.

It seems to me that I have done the right thing in that a) I consulted a Solicitor and I have written to the MD of the dealership rejecting the vehicle.

Armed with this guidance I will visit the dealership as soon as possible and show them the relevant clauses.

If you can prove you placed your order as a result of being told the vehicle has hill start as a standard feature, then the vehicle is delivered minus this aspect, you can reject the vehicle as being 'unfit as described' which is different to 'unfit for purpose'.

In laymans terms: If you are sold a light bulb which the salesman states 'will light up your kitchen' then you get home but find it doesn't 'light up the corner' but the bulb is in fact working correctly you can return it as described above.

Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, the goods should be:-

• 
  
  • 
    
    • - Of satisfactory quality
      

      - Fit for their purpose

      
      

      - As described

      
      

You have proven the 'as described' was not adhered to so there 'should' be no problem rejecting the vehicle. As said before, take it back, leave it with the dealer so you are not at risk of damage & not adding any mileage to the claim.

I was hoping 1 of our resident dealers might have offered an opinion on this topic, James where are you?

Sale of Goods Act Quick Facts - BERR is also worth a read, I wonder if I've been here before? :eek:

Edited 22 November, 2008 by Supacabby

[mikes]

Don't use the words 'Hill Start' as I can find no reference to it on the Skoda site - the Skoda term is 'Hill hold'

He assured me that the listing was for manual cars and mine would have a Hill Hold as standard

If you can prove the above was true (did anyone hear you?), and your car was delivered without it, you might have a case.

No doubt the dealer will produce the order document (which I guess you signed) which will be minus hill hold. I'm sure the dealer will want to wiggle out of it by quoting the Skoda spec sheet that says the standard equipment does not include hill hold.

I think you're on a sticky wicket with this one, but let us know your progress.

[Supacabby]

Don't use the words 'Hill Start' as I can find no reference to it on the Skoda site - the Skoda term is 'Hill hold'

Apologies, that was me, I'm not a Skoda owner at the moment so unaware of the exact terminology!

[billhum]

I think I owe the contributors to this thread an update on my return after a couple of weeks away. I had a letter from the Dealer's MD waiting for me. There were some important factual errors in it and I felt it necessary to phone him. The discussion generated more heat than light.

I asked him what he thought I had to gain by lying. He became increasingly abusive and told me I was an, "unhappy individual who looked to making things difficult" That was one his more complimentary phrases.

He says he has spoken to his staff, who understandably will put a story showing them in the best light. And add that to his efforts to counter my argument. I told the salesman that I would not buy a car without Hill Hold. His version, presumeably based on what he was told, is that I "didn't wish to pay .... as (I) did not believe it was necessary"

I have avoided mentioning the name of the dealers (although one corresponent has guessed). I have also tried not to denigrate any of the sales staff. The facts are as I have described and speak for themselves; you can draw your own conclusions.

I have arranged to see him on Monday.

[Bagpuss]

Good luck with this, Bill.

A friend of mine recently had some issues like this with an R32 Golf he had purchased. The dealership were less than helpful, so he resorted to parking up on the road outside the dealership, his car covered in posters expressing his unhappiness. He also handed out leaflets to every customer going into the dealership, explaining what had happened.

After 3 weekends of this, the dealer realised he wasn't going to go quietly, and eventually they reached an agreement which everyone was happy with.

Not sure if you have time, or the inclination, to do the same, but it's one possible approach.

Bagpuss.

[Chris Westy]

billhum, I can't see if you mention it's a diesel or petrol anywhere maybe I missed it - I presume it's diesel.

SUK have just posted a new catalogue on the website. The interesting thing is that on the 'S' it says that Hill Hold is standard on the 1.8TSi. If you go back and compare it with the original catalogue you'll find that this is a NEW description that has been added.

It other words it appears that there may have been an opportunity for confusion to arise, either in the information given to the dealer by SUK originally, or by the salesman to you. The fact that the change appears in the catalogue can't be ignored.

[billhum]

Thank you BAGPUSS. I'm afraid I don't have the stamina for a campaign like that.

I had another call from the MD later and he was much more concilliatory. I think he is looking for a compromise but my only concern is getting the car I want, I am not interested in making a profit from the deal.

He says the cost of waiting for a new car, while I used mine for a couple of months, is prohibitive. I can see that but what alternative is there?

If there was some way of getting the Hill Holder fitted on my car, I would be quite happy. He claims this is impossible though.

[Minuss]

In Sweden, which only have the Greenline, the Ambition (i.e. the SE) and the Elegance trim, the Hill Hold control is standard in all three trims, for all engines. So someone at SkodaSWE must have thought it a good idea, also for the DSGs.

[billhum]

It is a 170BHP Diesel Elegance and I like it very much- well, I like it only 99% because of that damn Hill Hold.

[Bagpuss]

Thank you BAGPUSS. I'm afraid I don't have the stamina for a campaign like that.

I had another call from the MD later and he was much more concilliatory. I think he is looking for a compromise but my only concern is getting the car I want, I am not interested in making a profit from the deal.

He says the cost of waiting for a new car, while I used mine for a couple of months, is prohibitive. I can see that but what alternative is there?

If there was some way of getting the Hill Holder fitted on my car, I would be quite happy. He claims this is impossible though.

It sounds like you might be getting somewhere.

As for retrofitting hill hold, there's always a way, it's just the will that's often absent. If Audi can retrofit ESP to the TT, then Skoda can retrofit hill hold. One option would be for the car to go back to the factory, and have it fitted there.

Alternatively, why not offer to hand back your current car on the condition that he orders you a new one with the correct spec., and gives you a courtesy car in the meantime. They must have used stock lying around that they could press into service.

Bagpuss.

[Supacabby]

Good to hear some positive news.

I said right in the beginning, the only route was to return the car straight away & then your in a much better position to 'debate'. If your dealer was serious about looking to compromise he would have offered you alternative transport whilst this problem was sorted amongst the various factions. All the while you continue to drive this car your chances of a solution to suit 'you' will be lowered.

If this was my car my plan of action would have been:

1: Return the car citing 'not as described'

2: Insist on a replacement to the correct specification be ordered as a matter of priority through SUK.

3: Ensure a complimenatary car is given whilst I waited.

Yes it sounds easy & I fully understand it's not however your racking up mileage will simply play into 'their hands'.

[billhum]

It sounds like you might be getting somewhere.

As for retrofitting hill hold, there's always a way, it's just the will that's often absent. If Audi can retrofit ESP to the TT, then Skoda can retrofit hill hold. One option would be for the car to go back to the factory, and have it fitted there.

Alternatively, why not offer to hand back your current car on the condition that he orders you a new one with the correct spec., and gives you a courtesy car in the meantime. They must have used stock lying around that they could press into service.

Bagpuss.

I had asked for him to take my car and provide me with alternative transpot while a new one arrived. He said that would cost him £4000 in all and there was no way he would do it. It does not leave much room for compromise and if I hold my ground, no doubt I shall get another dose of personal abuse. Not that it particularly bothers me.

If I persue any action, it will almost certainly involve publicity and I don't think he would care much for that.

[billhum]

Good to hear some positive news.

I said right in the beginning, the only route was to return the car straight away & then your in a much better position to 'debate'. If your dealer was serious about looking to compromise he would have offered you alternative transport whilst this problem was sorted amongst the various factions. All the while you continue to drive this car your chances of a solution to suit 'you' will be lowered.

If this was my car my plan of action would have been:

1: Return the car citing 'not as described'

2: Insist on a replacement to the correct specification be ordered as a matter of priority through SUK.

3: Ensure a complimenatary car is given whilst I waited.

Yes it sounds easy & I fully understand it's not however your racking up mileage will simply play into 'their hands'.

See my previous posting.

My car will have done about 700 miles by Monday. There is a good reason why I have to use it. My wifes car has been in his service bay for two weeks (for a job that should have taken a day) and I dion't think the reasons for this reflect much credit on them.. It seems to me that this is a seriously disfunctional dealer. Most of the people are trying to do a good job but I don't think the systems are in place to help them.

[Departed]

I had asked for him to take my car and provide me with alternative transpot while a new one arrived. He said that would cost him £4000 in all and there was no way he would do it. It does not leave much room for compromise and if I hold my ground' date=' no doubt I shall get another dose of personal abuse. Not that it particularly bothers me.

If I persue any action, it will almost certainly involve publicity and I don't think he would care much for that.[/quote']

You may well have what you believe to be a reason to continue driving the Superb, but every day and every mile you continue to do so shows that you have accepted it - no matter what you have said to the contrary.

I didn't think you had a case to start with, but having continued to drive it, once you realised it was not what you asked for, has now put this beyond doubt. The dealer's attitude says to me that he will not be bothered by publicity at all. In these circumstances, neither would I, if I were the dealer. Frankly, you've helped his case by continuing to drive it. The alleged £4,000 was a nonsense - but you let him off the hook then - and he will not be throwing himself back on it any time soon.

Sorry to say this, but I'd concentrate on researching ways to retro-fit the Hill Hold, if possible, because that's the only possibility you have of a resolution now - and one that won't be provided at no cost, BTW.

I doubt that the highest echelons in the company, here or abroad, will do anything other than defend and support the dealer. Like it or not, this is now a dead horse. I've got no axe to grind, I don't condone the dealer's action or attitude, I've nothing personal against you or your circumstances, but - above all - I'm a highly-qualified realist. I've seen the lengths that people will go to in avoidance of acting decently, an attitude which now seems to have become the norm.

My advice now, however unpalatable, is to draw a line under it and move on.

Ray

[Bagpuss]

See my previous posting.

My car will have done about 700 miles by Monday. There is a good reason why I have to use it. My wifes car has been in his service bay for two weeks (for a job that should have taken a day) and I dion't think the reasons for this reflect much credit on them.. It seems to me that this is a seriously disfunctional dealer. Most of the people are trying to do a good job but I don't think the systems are in place to help them.

Surely, the dealer in question has provided you with a courtesy car whilst your wife's car is off the road? If not, then you should have insisted on one, given that it appears to be their failings which have caused this to happen.

I think Ray makes a very good point here. By continuing to drive the Superb, you've weakened your case significantly. At this point, I'd be seriously thinking about how much hill hold is actually worth to you.

Your dealer is obviously pulling away from the idea of trying to sort this out, hence the £4000 cost estimate. If you really want hill hold, then I suspect you are going to have to bear some inconvenience to get it. Could you manage with just your wife's car? That way, you could hand the Superb back now, and simply wait for a new one to arrive.

With regards to actually rejecting the car under the Sale of Goods Act, then I think you are also on a sticky wicket. The law allows for a vehicle to be rejected if it is not "of satisfactory quality", or did not remain so for a reasonable period of time. Case precedent also allows for the supplier to have 3 attempts at rectifying the fault, and to have failed to do so. In your case, I don't think the absence of an option you failed to order, can be considered a fault.

Also, there has been a new precedent set in this area recently, which I think your case does fall under:

Important Appeal Court Case Precedent supplied by Andrew Quirk

A recent hearing highlighted the importance of seeking sensible early legal advice in order to save unnecessary expense.

Darren Egan vs. Motor Services (Bath) Ltd (18 October 2007) is a Court of Appeal case which saw the consumer who attempted to reject his vehicle lose out dramatically.

The consumer complained that his car, a new Audi TT 3.2 litre V6, veered to the left and as such wanted to return the car to the dealer and be refunded.

Whilst an expert witness gave evidence supporting the consumers claim, the Court ruled that the vehicle was "of satisfactory quality" because the sensitivity of the car to camber was in fact normal for that type of car - the reasonable person would not consider that this would make the vehicle unsatisfactory.

This provided a useful case precedent for motor dealers as it makes clear that vehicles may have "characteristics" such as sensitivity to the camber of the road without being "of unsatisfactory quality". It may also prove to be useful case law for retailers of other consumer products.

The legal expenditure of both parties was around £100,000 and the car cost £32,300 in July 2003. This led Lord Justice Ward to exclaim: "...one or other parties to the action, if not both of them..." were "...completely cuckoo..." to have pursued the litigation when little was at stake and that the lawyers should have taken "...the firmest grip..." from the outset.

This case shows the fundamental importance of getting expert guidance on the legal issues raised in a dispute and how to resolve it at the earliest opportunity.

I think the dealer could successfully argue that the absence of hill hold was 'normal' for this type of car, as in the above case. You could end up seriously out of pocket over a £100 option, if you pursue the legal route.

Personally, I'd suggest you seek proper legal advice before taking this any further. In the meantime, if the dealer offers you any way at all of getting a car with hill hold, then I'd suggest you accept.

Bagpuss.

[jcblincs]

cuckoo, cuckoo !

classic quote from a member of the legal profession !!

[billhum]

Good luck with this, Bill.

A friend of mine recently had some issues like this with an R32 Golf he had purchased. The dealership were less than helpful, so he resorted to parking up on the road outside the dealership, his car covered in posters expressing his unhappiness. He also handed out leaflets to every customer going into the dealership, explaining what had happened.

After 3 weekends of this, the dealer realised he wasn't going to go quietly, and eventually they reached an agreement which everyone was happy with.

Not sure if you have time, or the inclination, to do the same, but it's one possible approach.

Bagpuss.

I would like to know what he settled for. The dealer has said he is looking for a compromise. I'm limited to either having a car with Hill Hold or not. What would be reasonable to expect of the dealer?

Edited 5 December, 2008 by billhum
Missing word

[Bagpuss]

I would like to know what he settled for. The dealer has said he is looking for a compromise. I'm limited to either having a car with Hill Hold or not. What would be reasonable to expect of the dealer?

His situation was slightly different, in that he ordered a Golf R32 manual and the car that arrived was DSG. He negotiated a deal on the price with the dealer, and accepted the DSG as he didn't want to wait any more (I believe they split the cost of the DSG).

The DSG gearbox then suffered numerous problems over the next 6 months, and the dealer was unable to affect a satisfactory repair. Unfortunately for my friend, after 6 months the law switches around in terms of rejection, and the onus is then placed on the buyer, rather than the seller, to prove that the car was not 'of satisfactory quality'.

The dealer wasn't interested in sorting this out, so he resorted to his campaign.

In the end, the dealer agreed to take back the car and ordered him the R32 manual he actually wanted. They reached a compromise on the value of his DSG R32, as by this time, it had nearly 10,000 miles on it.

From what I understand, he ended up about £500 out of pocket, but did get the car he actually wanted.

If your dealer is prepared to take back your existing Superb, and order you a new one (with hill hold), then I think I'd snap his hand off. Assuming you can manage with just your wife's car, then I think this would be a pretty good result, and would avoid any legal wrangling.

Bagpuss.

[Burnsey]

If you look here you will find hill hold now standard on petrol DSG. As both you and the dealer made the same mistake I wonder if this helps muddy the waters enough for them to admit their mistake and help to resolve to your satisfaction

http://briskoda.net/superb-ii/hill-hold-now-standard-1-8-dsg/130766/

[billhum]

His situation was slightly different, in that he ordered a Golf R32 manual and the car that arrived was DSG. He negotiated a deal on the price with the dealer, and accepted the DSG as he didn't want to wait any more (I believe they split the cost of the DSG).

The DSG gearbox then suffered numerous problems over the next 6 months, and the dealer was unable to affect a satisfactory repair. Unfortunately for my friend, after 6 months the law switches around in terms of rejection, and the onus is then placed on the buyer, rather than the seller, to prove that the car was not 'of satisfactory quality'.

The dealer wasn't interested in sorting this out, so he resorted to his campaign.

In the end, the dealer agreed to take back the car and ordered him the R32 manual he actually wanted. They reached a compromise on the value of his DSG R32, as by this time, it had nearly 10,000 miles on it.

From what I understand, he ended up about £500 out of pocket, but did get the car he actually wanted.

If your dealer is prepared to take back your existing Superb, and order you a new one (with hill hold), then I think I'd snap his hand off. Assuming you can manage with just your wife's car, then I think this would be a pretty good result, and would avoid any legal wrangling.

Bagpuss.

Well I, too, have a very limited appetite for wrangling. If the dealer offers me any sort of reasonable compromise. I shall certainly take it.

I'll let you know how I get on and thank you for your helpful advice.

As this correspondence is almost certainly being read by a member of the Sales Staff (good afternnon Dean), I will say no more until after my meeting.

[xxleeus]

Characteristics of the box DSG 02E: • Great flexibility on the level of L `opening of the box • Starting with tendency to rampage • Mechanical blocking of carpark • Mécatronique integrated into the box • Kick down • Checking routine of starting (Launch Control) • Regulation of the creeping • Function of maintenance in coast (Hillholder) • Reduction of the couple D `clutch when the brake is tight

This is the 6 speed DSG.

The new 7 speed DSG might be different and the hillholder need to be ordered as an option.

[billhum]

Characteristics of the box DSG 02E: • Great flexibility on the level of L `opening of the box • Starting with tendency to rampage • Mechanical blocking of carpark • Mécatronique integrated into the box • Kick down • Checking routine of starting (Launch Control) • Regulation of the creeping • Function of maintenance in coast (Hillholder) • Reduction of the couple D `clutch when the brake is tight

This is the 6 speed DSG.

The new 7 speed DSG might be different and the hillholder need to be ordered as an option.

Thank you for that info, which is rather too technical for me to grasp.

From the following post you will see that I will have a new car in a couple of months. As it is not built yet, is there anything that I should ask for, other than a Hill Hold? I assume my present car is a 6 speed, should I ask for a 7 speed?

[Departed]

I assume my present car is a 6 speed, should I ask for a 7 speed?

As far as I can see from the "configurator" Bill, it's only the Elegance 1.8 TSI 160bhp that comes with the 7-speed box (but has Hill Hold already as standard), assuming I'm reading it correctly.

Ray.

[billhum]

I promised an update on my meeting last Moday with the dealer. I was waiting for a confirming letter, which I now have.

He has agreed to take back my car and replace it with an identical model with a Hill Hold fitted.

This is exactly what I had asked for and it would be churlish for me to complaln at the prospect of using my wife's car for a couple of months. Or indeed to describe a meeting which started off extremely badly.

I am very grateful for all the support and advice you have given me.

[Departed]

I promised an update on my meeting last Moday with the dealer. I was waiting for a confirming letter' date=' which I now have.

He has agreed to take back my car and replace it with an identical model with a Hill Hold fitted.

This is exactly what I had asked for and it would be churlish for me to complaln at the prospect of using my wife's car for a couple of months. Or indeed to describe a meeting which started off extremely badly.

I am very grateful for all the support and advice you have given me.[/quote']

Bill, that's fantastic! Let me be the first to congratulate you on achieving this result in what I felt was an un-winnable situation.

Ray