The topic is constructed by wim (wheels-inmotion) TDiplc (Torque Developments International plc) with a Pro-drive accreditation.

Before we can consider chassis dynamics, first we need to understand "US".

The demands on manufacturer's to deliver faster, better handling cars has been surpassed by our inability to drive them. The evolution of systems like ABS and interactive suspension, to mention a few allows the cars intelligence to replace our miss givings.... "Why"

Part 1 Humans

The driving process:

• Step one: A driver looks at the oncoming road and estimates the required inputs to complete the task at hand, we make this estimate based on a model of the car held in our memory, the more accurate this model the more accurate our initial guess.

• Step two: An “Open Loop” input is made according to our guess

• Step 3: Then “Closed Loop” trimming modifies these inputs to take account of emerging conditions or errors in the initial guess

There are 3 main channels of feed back used for “Closed Loop” driving

1. Visual feedback

2. Inner ear (yaw rate, lateral acceleration etc) feedback

3. Muscle tension or Steering wheel torque feedback

It is through these communication channels that a car can speak to a driver.

Ok

firstly, the drivers eyes….

Processing visual stimuli is actually quite a complex procedure and incurs a delay of around 600msec in most people between seeing and understanding, so that’s a maximum update rate of around 1.8Hz

Driving by your eyes alone is only possible if no quick action is required.

• If the roads and bend radius's are known and learned

• And of course as long as no chassis control task’s are required

The inner ear….

Processing the yaw and latt acc information from the inner ear is a far simpler process and is therefore faster but even so this feed-back process still suffers a delay of around 300msec so this loop can actually update at around 3.2Hz which is pretty fast.

Muscle tension in the drivers body….

The task of moving the steering wheel is a function carried out by the brain stem, the brain stem works automatically to maintain the correct steering angle by varying your arms muscle tension. Changes in the steering resistance cause the brain stem to get confused and flag up the problem to a higher part of the brain that is responsible for processing the overall task of driving the car. This form of feedback is extremely fast at around 100msec so this can provide you feedback at 10Hz (ten times per second).

Some interesting points to note:

• A driver’s in-head car model is almost exclusively linear

• Excessive anxiety in a driver can easily cause the steer torque mechanism to be completely “swamped” by muscle tension and therefore useless.

• Inexperienced drivers are frequently unable to interpret inner ear signals or are too confused to act on them so they are discarded by the brains automatic information filters in the brain stem

• A surprising level of confusion exists in the inner ear between yaw and chassis roll, this lead some drivers to “dislike” body roll

• Many drivers are found to revert back to an entirely visual driving strategy in emergency circumstances

• Many drivers are overwhelmed and lose control even though the car was capable of completing the maneuver

• A maximum practicable hand steering wheel rate is around 1100 degrees / second –but not for long

• Typical hand wheel rates are much slower - < 100 degrees / second in “Sensible” driving.

As you can read our abilities are somewhat primitive compared to our manufacturing requests.....

This response is constructed by WJA96.

You apparently drive a Citroen. I used to drive a Citroen C6. It was very nice. It had very, very, sharp brakes. Citroen's engineers chose to give me braking power over 'feel'.

In my current cars (Porsche Boxster, Fabia vRS, VW Passat, if I press hard on the brake and the car thinks I want to do an emergency stop it will apply the brakes harder than I can (brake assist), because I don't realise how weakly I am pressing the brake pedal. They had to build that in because I wanted feel and I don't know how hard I can actually press the brake pedal.

Which was the right choice?

When I was 20 I had the hand-eye co-ordination of a 20-year old. Now I'm 42 and I don't anymore. How does that affect your hypotheses?

I drive a bit further back now as I nearly crashed into someone recently;).

I've just bought some bigger brakes for my Fabia, but they won't help if I can't process the brake-light->closing distance->put foot on brake and press HARD! events that are necessary to stop me crashing into the car in front.

My next car could be a Volvo as apparently you can't crash into someone in stop-start traffic in a Volvo anymore. That sounds useful. Of course, I'd have to drive a Volvo, and I hate Volvos:D

You've obviously put some thought into your post, but I'm not sure what sort of responses you're going to get.

Probably a healthy dose of "WTF?"

Wtf

And your point is?

You are obviously not a lover of cars, because you drive a Citroen, and can't spell Citroen. ( tongue in cheek, obviously....)

This response is constructed by WJA96.

You apparently drive a Citroen. I used to drive a Citroen C6. It was very nice. It had very, very, sharp brakes. Citroen's engineers chose to give me braking power over 'feel'.

In my current cars (Porsche Boxster, Fabia vRS, VW Passat, if I press hard on the brake and the car thinks I want to do an emergency stop it will apply the brakes harder than I can (brake assist), because I don't realise how weakly I am pressing the brake pedal. They had to build that in because I wanted feel and I don't know how hard I can actually press the brake pedal.

Which was the right choice?

When I was 20 I had the hand-eye co-ordination of a 20-year old. Now I'm 42 and I don't anymore. How does that affect your hypotheses?

I drive a bit further back now as I nearly crashed into someone recently;).

I've just bought some bigger brakes for my Fabia, but they won't help if I can't process the brake-light->closing distance->put foot on brake and press HARD! events that are necessary to stop me crashing into the car in front.

My next car could be a Volvo as apparently you can't crash into someone in stop-start traffic in a Volvo anymore. That sounds useful. Of course, I'd have to drive a Volvo, and I hate Volvos:D

You've obviously put some thought into your post, but I'm not sure what sort of responses you're going to get.

Probably a healthy dose of "WTF?"

I drive many cars, from donkey's to supercars "so what?"..... The objective of the post was to enlighten anyone that's interested how we (humans) perceive the challenge of driving, our advantages and disadvantages.

The construction came from Prodrive, TDiplc and wheels-inmotion and is nothing more than a "oh really" post members can make of what they will?

I drive many cars, from donkey's to supercars "so what?"..... The objective of the post was to enlighten anyone that's interested how we (humans) perceive the challenge of driving, our advantages and disadvantages.

The construction came from Prodrive, TDiplc and wheels-inmotion and is nothing more than a "oh really" post members can make of what they will?

Surely the numbers you quote (reaction times and response times) are meaningless unless you quote an age-group. Are they maximums, averages across all drivers? What about differences in the sex of driver? I'm interested, I'm just not uncritical.

And you haven't answered my questions;)

:popcorn:

Re-post, thread closed.