Positioning

[ScoobyChris]

Prompted by Xav's question in another thread, I thought this topic might be worthy of it's own thread!

Position is the second phase in the Police system of car control and is dictated by the 4 S's

- Safety

- System (aka positioning for view)

- Smoothness

- Speed/stability

These represent a priority ordered list and those below can be sacrificed for those above. For example, Safety is never sacrificed, but I can sacrifice Smoothness and Speed/Stability so long as the positioning is Safe and I'm following the System.

So what does this mean in real terms? If I'm approaching a bend, I ideally want to satisfy all 4 S's and so on a nice open sweeping right hand bend I might opt to straight-line it and clip the apex. If there is a more limited view into it, then I'll position towards the left hand edge of the carriageway (mindful of any debris, gravel, mud, water, potholes, etc which may restrict how far over I can position safely) to increase my view into the corner. Doing this will increase my progress by allowing me to see the end of the corner earlier, and hence get on the power earlier. Conversely positioning towards the crown of the road in this scenario will throttle my view and potentially lead me to conflict with other cars.

Left hand bends are more interesting as the ideal position to be in to maximise the view into the corner is at or over the crown of the road. However, positioning to create a view from nothing sounds pretty dangerous to me so we need to make sure that we only expand on an existing view, rather than try and generate one from nothing. With an existing view, we at least have something to work with and can assess whether it is safe to move further out. So for our ideal left hand open bend with good views, we may be completely on the opposite side of the road and straight-lining (clipping the apex). For one with reasonable visibility into it we'll move to the crown of the road to extend that as far as we can, and for a tight left hander with very restricted visibility, we'll opt to tuck in as close to the left hand edge as possible, with the expectation of oncoming cars cutting the corner or perhaps overtaking walkers/cyclists/etc.

What about just driving along a road? Well, there's no such thing as "just driving along a road" and all roads have hazards of one sort or another and these will dictate where you position. Imho, the ideal position is at or over the crown of the road (bearing in mind the 4 S's) as this tends to be the grippiest piece of tarmac and also gives you a good balance of views ahead, including junctions, driveways, debris, as well as putting you a good distance from them. Of course, if there were lots of hazards on one side of the road, it may pay to drive on the offside where possible to increase the distance between them. Potholes, mud, leaves and surface water are typically at the edges of the road and driving through these should be avoided if possible as they'll needlessly compromise grip and also make you have to work harder to keep the car going in a straight line.

So in short, you want to position on the driest, grippiest piece of road, that maximises your view of what lies ahead, without compromising the safety of you or others around you. Easy, eh?

Chris

[DriveMeBananas]

A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Be very careful if you play with roadcraft without proper training. I provide training to experienced drivers and have been alarmed at some of their interpretation of roadcraft.

It is worth noting that the police don't drive like this "normally". If they are adopting this style of road positioning they are usually displaying light and sound to warn other road users.

[ScoobyChris]

It is worth noting that the police don't drive like this "normally". If they are adopting this style of road positioning they are usually displaying light and sound to warn other road users.

That is not my experience

Chris

[DriveMeBananas]

As you are probably aware many police drivers have not had any advanced driver training, my brother has done his response driving and now the novelty has worn off he has found 5th gear again and drives on his own side of the road.

[sms]

it was one thing i asked my examiner before i took my advance how would he like my driving style at the roadcraft video, rospa drive out and IAM driveout along with SAFED all show different styles of driving. All he wanted was to see a safe drive with view to make progress and economically, he did say he would be shocked if i did my test like the way the roadcraft video shows.

[ScoobyChris]

he did say he would be shocked if i did my test like the way the roadcraft video shows.

Was there anything specific he didn't like? The cover jacket states that the Roadcraft video is "ideally suited for civilian drivers who would like to improve their skills in preparation for an advanced driving test such as those run by the IAM or RoSPA".

Chris

[ScoobyChris]

As you are probably aware many police drivers have not had any advanced driver training, my brother has done his response driving and now the novelty has worn off he has found 5th gear again and drives on his own side of the road.

Ah that could explain it - my experience involves advanced grade (old class 1) police drivers and instructors

Chris

[DriveMeBananas]

What is expected during an advanced driving test?

1. A safe smooth comfortable drive.

The main point of advanced driving is to improve driver awareness and road safety. It is not about going faster.

There can be an element of showing off when police drivers get the opportunity to demonstrate their driving to civilians.

Road craft and its civilian version "fleetcraft" discuss positioning for corners. There is no mention in fleetcraft of crossing the centre marking to improve your view approaching a left bend.

I feel that a good understanding of limit points is of much more benefit than simply moving out to the outside of a bend.

[ScoobyChris]

What is expected during an advanced driving test?

1. A safe smooth comfortable drive.

Which mentions nothing about where you drive on the road. Similarly, this is the recognised definition of advanced driving....

Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to progress unobtrusively with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation, and planning. This must be coordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely on its own side of the road in the distance that can be seen to be clear..

The main point of advanced driving is to improve driver awareness and road safety. It is not about going faster.

Absolutely - I've made no mention of going faster. I stated that getting an earlier view can enable one to plan further head and hence make better progress...

I feel that a good understanding of limit points is of much more benefit than simply moving out to the outside of a bend.

You're entitled to your opinions

However, I'm not sure that limit points and advanced positioning are mutually exclusive and I would say once limit points are understood, advanced positioning is a good natural progression which gives you more information earlier, allowing you to plan further ahead and make better progress. Sounds like a good thing to me

Chris

[KenONeill]

I had an object lesson in how not to offside and straight-line about 3 weeks ago (A82 Southbound out of Glencoe).

The chap delivering it was off-siding into LH turns where he wasn't increasing his sight-line noticably and was holding me up on a tighter line. When he realised someone was sitting hehind him laughing at him, he let me through, and I naffed off into the distance without using as much of the road as he had been!

[sms]

Was there anything specific he didn't like? The cover jacket states that the Roadcraft video is "ideally suited for civilian drivers who would like to improve their skills in preparation for an advanced driving test such as those run by the IAM or RoSPA".

Chris

He felt that the video was more bully boy tactics to that of an advance driver and would have been shocked if i had driven and treated people how it is portrayed in the video, probably the best reason i passed :p

[ScoobyChris]

He felt that the video was more bully boy tactics to that of an advance driver and would have been shocked if i had driven and treated people how it is portrayed in the video, probably the best reason i passed :p

I guess that's an interesting interpretation of it considering the DVD is specifically edited to demonstrate IAM/RoSPA good practises! I skimmed through it yesterday and didn't see any bully boy tactics so if you bump into the examiner again I'd love to know specifics

How did your drive differ from what is demo'd in the video?

Chris

[TaviaRS]

I feel that a good understanding of limit points is of much more benefit than simply moving out to the outside of a bend.

True as it would depend on where the limit point is as to whether it is appropriate to move to the outside of a bend. Also, on a right hander, or even an open left hander you may be able to offside to maintain stability and smoothness.

Oh and I believe that Chris is "possibly" aware of how to apply Roadcraft and to "play" with it as I think he has had a little bit of training.......

he's still not as good as me though

[ScoobyChris]

he's still not as good as me though

I'd been wondering where you'd been hiding :P:D

Chris

[Tom_vRS]

My attack with all this advanced driving stuff is to digest it, give it a go, and apply it how I feel best.

[ncarring]

Blimey, the dinosaurs are back!

[DriveMeBananas]

Oh and I believe that Chris is "possibly" aware of how to apply Roadcraft and to "play" with it as I think he has had a little bit of training.......

he's still not as good as me though

My comments are directed at the general population of the world who are reading the thread, rather than at the author of the post.

If someone reads this thread and takes away "ideas" but not proper knowledge and understanding of the subject I do not wish to meet them coming towards me on a wet country road.

[sms]

How did your drive differ from what is demo'd in the video?

Chris

wasnt driving around ragging the engine for one

[ScoobyChris]

wasnt driving around ragging the engine for one

Is that in the Roadcraft video? :confused:

Chris

[TaviaRS]

IIRC they do make full use of the rev range, sometimes inappropriately, IMHO.

Jonathan, I agree, there is no substitute for training and practice. I also think that the people who read this type of thread are the people who actually have an interest in improving the standard of their driving and are possibly more aware of their driving that the normal run of the mill driver. They are usualy people who want to improve and don't actually think of themselves as "driving gods", I know that I for one consider myself to be an average driver..... I did actually do a poll a while back, following on from a newspaper article where something like 75% of drivers considered themselves "above average", asking people to rate themselves. Funnily enough, the people who post in this particular section are the ones who rated themselves lower than the general posters but, having driven with some of them, I would say that they are amongst the better drivers with and appetite to learn. Strange really....

Regards,

Grumposaurus

[ScoobyChris]

IIRC they do make full use of the rev range, sometimes inappropriately, IMHO.

I'll have to take another look

Chris

[sms]

Is that in the Roadcraft video? :confused:

Chris

thats the one in the mondeo. my first ever driveout was with a IAM guy in his 1.0 pug and i watched the rev counter red line at each gear change and at that point nearly gave up, he claimed it was being sympathetic to the engine the next guy to take me out was a bit more caring i thought and the engine sounded more comftable.

[KenONeill]

That would put me right off. Ok my car's engine is totally different to the Pug 1.0l, but I hardly ever take it over half revs, and still find the car in front holds me up when accelerating more often than not.

[ScoobyChris]

Police guidelines IIRC are to use no more than 90% of available revs which is typically where peak power is made, and hence mechanically sympathetic.

Chris

[KenONeill]

90% of available (governer stops car accelerating) is still past peak and running into some soft governers in TDis.