Ok so I've got a felicia estate 1.6 MPi S reg beastie. Other than a couple of tiny faults the car is in really good nick, oh and the fact that the engined is not very healthy and the thermostat gauge only works when the engine gets hot, i.e sitting in traffic for a few minutes.

The general feeling is that the piston rings have seized or broken but probably seized.

Is it possible to fill the cylinders with diesel / petrol / unseizing agent to try and rectify the problem. I only ask as it's what I've had to do to release piston rings & pistons from the steam engine cylinders I used to work on when they got carboned up. (Carbon about 1/2" - 1" thick sometimes)

Any ideas????

Anyway the story so far is below;

The garage the car came from refurbed the head due to lots of smoke when they got the car, and it then ran ok for a few months.

Basically it's burning oil and shakes about a bit (my mum thinks the car ADHD).

It was a slightly shakey when we got it, but didn't really notice it at the time.

We used it for 3 months without a problem and then spent a week in derbyshire, which caused the shakes to get worse and the spark plugs at either end to oil up causing lots of juddering and blue smoke.

Once they had been cleaned up everthing was back to normal. We've since changed the plugs and kept a close eye on the every 1000 miles, sometimes they oil up a bit sometimes they don't.

Then at the beginning of December driving along quite happily when the oil light came on whilst going down a hill. Stopped the car instantly and the car restarted fine first time without the warning light.

Drove fine after that. Drove into work the next day ok (about 15 miles), called the AA to give it a good look over but he couldn't find anything, but he did say it definately isn't a head gasket problem (which was agreed by my local garage).

He followed me back to my local garage where after about 8 miles there was a bit of smoke at a junction but that cleared up quickly, and then 100 yards short of the garage, again going down hill the oil light came on.

Stopped the car, restarted absolutely fine and again no light but a lot of blue smoke out the back which cleared after a couple of seconds.

I used it for a few days after that and it was ok.

It's now stored at work until I can get it sorted.

first thing is the thermostat,

you say it only work when it gets realy hot, what does that mean ?

if ti means you get no reading and while sitting in trafic you get a reading of 1/4 way up then the thermostat (not the temp sender) is damaged, and its the first thing you need to replace your temperature should be a little of the middle mark (down when high speed, up when sitting in traffic)

about the smoke, if you have bad combustion youre gona get a lot of it, check the valve clearances fixing that made me go from fouled plugs to clean ones, if you have all steel rods its 0.25mm exhaust 0.20mm intake if you have alloy its the other way arround bad valve clearance gives you a bad tick over, poor Fuel Economy, sud on the plugs and when you ride the engine for a long time it sound weird (like its telling you something) and could be a mistake the shop did when re-fitting the head

take out the plugs that are getting soiled, take it to your parts store and ask for 2 numbers hotter plug, that will keep you running in the meantime

how much oil are you loosing, is it a quart in a month, month and a half ?

can you please take a picture of the firing end of the plugs and submit it ?

if you can start it up it isn't siezed:confused:

If it's burning oil it does point strongly to the piston rings.

I think if its been running too rich the piston rings get eaten away allowing oil up to the combustion chamber. Boffins please correct this if I'm wrong!!!!

My Head gasket blew when I had the Felicia 1.6 in Dec 2008, before that the engine was very healthy.

When I had to limp the car home the engine sounded metallic and wouldn't fire unless the accelerator was pressed. mayonnaise everywhere (under the cap and on the dipstick) confirmed head gasket failure. If it starts you can prob count this out.

It could be that there's too much oil in the sump so its burning it off?

Temp sensor?

The oil light goes off and on but what are the oil levels actually like?

The gauge only works when the car is sat in traffic all other times is it just sat cold? What is the heater like? Is it just blowing cold/cool air and not proper hot on full heat?

Thats another thing, there is some wonderful mayo under the cap but none on the dipstick and it only started once the weather got cold, the AA guy and garage weren't concerned by it and mentioned that it was probably condensation or something.

And I mentioned before, it passed the head gasket test repeatedly for the AA guy and again at my local garage so it's not that. Other than when the plugs oil up it runs as smooth as a healthy engine would when driving and sounds fine.

I don't think it's too much oil in the sump as it has been using oil but only what the manual states, but only when things get oily. Otherwise it uses very little oil.

The temp display usually sits at nothing and when sitting in traffic it then reads as you would expect. It is basically the bottom 1/4 - 1/3 that doesn't show a reading, anything over that works as normal. So sitting a traffic will get a reading to show as would making the engine work hard over a long period.

I'm not entirely sure how a dodgy thermostat would cause the problems I'm having though as the fan kicks in as and when it would on any other car.

The heater is fairly pathetic and usually only blows out cool / luke warm air if I'm very lucky. Again though what would that suggest?

Thats another thing, there is some wonderful mayo under the cap but none on the dipstick and it only started once the weather got cold, the AA guy and garage weren't concerned by it and mentioned that it was probably condensation or something.

And I mentioned before, it passed the head gasket test repeatedly for the AA guy and again at my local garage so it's not that. Other than when the plugs oil up it runs as smooth as a healthy engine would when driving and sounds fine.

I don't think it's too much oil in the sump as it has been using oil but only what the manual states, but only when things get oily. Otherwise it uses very little oil.

The temp display usually sits at nothing and when sitting in traffic it then reads as you would expect. It is basically the bottom 1/4 - 1/3 that doesn't show a reading, anything over that works as normal. So sitting a traffic will get a reading to show as would making the engine work hard over a long period.

I'm not entirely sure how a dodgy thermostat would cause the problems I'm having though as the fan kicks in as and when it would on any other car.

The heater is fairly pathetic and usually only blows out cool / luke warm air if I'm very lucky. Again though what would that suggest?

ok, if the heater is pathetic and the temp gauge work like that, then your thermostat is damage, thats the first thing your gona need fixin, the car needs to get to 90 degrees, to properly seal everything

check the water tank's cap, if ok, remove it turn the engine on ans squeeze the hoses to let any air out and top off... the cap need to make a good seal and not leat air out read other threads to learn of this

but you have to get a new thermostat and fit it, if not, the piston rings will shurely take a hike in no time (if it hasn't happen alredy god forbits)

turn the engine on, and let it warm up, while it does, check the fan it should have two speeds and stop, if not, check wich one, the fast speed or the slow speed

FIT A NEW THERMOSTAT AND BLEED THE SYSTEM CORECTLY!!! #1-A PRIORITY

and take a picture of the plugs to know exactly what where dealing with here

My Felly used to Mayo on shorter trips.

When it was proper warm or used on longer trips there was no mayo under the filler cap.

The heater should be hot not pathetically warm, thanks for saying that Cepheuz That was the first symptom of something wrong on mine.

Could be a sticking thermostat, or temp sender unit.

Does the rad fan kick in?

My Felly didnt burn any oil, but not all 1.6 units are the same.

I'll get the thermostat replaced in the next couple of days and try and get rid of the heating problem.

The rad fan does kick in but I've only ever noticed one speed, take off speed so guess the first stage doesn't kick in due to the thermostat.

Any other suggestions, bits to replace etc.

Is it worth trying some diesel / penetrating fluid to try and free up the piston rings. I don't have to move the car til the end on march so I've got time to try various things.

I just don't want to spend out on a replacement engine if I can help it.

If the rings are the problem it's unlikely you'll find any alternative to a rebuild or new engine. I remember years ago trying the "Redex" treatment where you put the stuff in and drove until the carbon was burned off. The clouds of smoke I left behind would have cloaked a fleet of ships. I drove for hours in the remote countryside until it cleared. That finished the engine conclusively.

I'll get the thermostat replaced in the next couple of days and try and get rid of the heating problem.

The rad fan does kick in but I've only ever noticed one speed, take off speed so guess the first stage doesn't kick in due to the thermostat.

Any other suggestions, bits to replace etc.

Is it worth trying some diesel / penetrating fluid to try and free up the piston rings. I don't have to move the car til the end on march so I've got time to try various things.

I just don't want to spend out on a replacement engine if I can help it.

Heed my advice; ¡DO NOT TRY TO CLEAN YOUR ENGINE WITH FLUID, DETERGENTS OR ANY OF THE SORT! The engine will clean itself out graduatly throu good use, stay in the green and the engine will most likely feel newer every time you drive...

now, to ease you mind...

there are three rings in the piston, one of them is to properly clean the cylinder, so you need not worry about that...

as you use your car, if you have good ignition timing, unaudible pinging and the normal gasoline detonation combines with over 400 degrees of heat will gradualy clean your pistons safely

regular oil changing will remove deposits and sediments from your engine, if used with a semy syntetic 10W40 15W40 oil will sufice to do a flush every other (or maybe less) oil change, to do it just drop a litter of ATF and let idle for 15min (there are also safe products available)

use always properly mixed coolant, pH level friction and heat will take care of the rest ( i recomed the pink stuff)

the only things you need to do so that all of this things happen is keep your engine in the proper heat (90 degrees) and do maintenances regulary (as sujested by owners manual) and drive at a good average so the motto is "USE IT OR LOOSE IT"

oh, and ask people arroud your area and here in the forum for recomendations on a good mechanic, the one you have sucks!!! jejejeje

no to finish of... i'm not a expert, a mechanic or a qualified guru, i'm presenting my idea with confidences cus of reading, researching and trying out but i have learned over and over again the same lesson "he who follows advice, dies of old age"...

now please, do try to take a picture of the firing end of the plugs, i realy want to see how fouled they are to have a better idea...

the spark plugs you should use for you feli is medium hot heat range (#9 or #10 After the "R" on BOSH) it should be gapped to 0.80mm max and for the MPi set the timing with a strobe gun to make sure of proper cylinder heat and spark eficiency (the computer will handle the rest)

make sure your valve clearances are the correct,

a trick to check if the piston rings are damage is to take out the dip stick and check if air presure is coming out, if it is (considerable) the the explosion presure is being leaked thou the seals...

a trick to check the condition of you head gasket is to rev the engine checking the water level, (without the cap) up = damage, down = good same = clog on the system

mayo on the cap but not on the dipstick is water condensation, mayo on the dip stick and the cap (regardless if it goes away after warm) is water leak

Edited 21 January, 200917 yr by Cepheuz

Try cleaning out the breather pipes first make sure the rubbers not cracked, could just be excess crankcase pressure. At worst sounds more like from your description that the valve stem oil seals are worn. If it was rings the engine would smoke all the time and really bad on acceleration. A simple compression test will confirm rings. And a head rebuild will be needed unless someone on here knows if you you can replace the seals in situ.???

When the problem first appeared in august in derbyshire the AA guy who came out cleaned the plugs, checked the compression and cleaned out the breather pipes which were all ok apart from oil on the plugs.

The head was also rebuilt before we got the car so should in theory be ok.

If it is the valve stem seals which are at fault, how much of an utter **** it is to take the head off, strip down, replace the seals and rebuild.

Ok so yesterday after work I thought I better try and start the car as I hadn't touched it before christmas.

Started first time and no hint of burning any oil and ran extremely smoothly. :confused:

I also left the cap off of the coolant res and to get rid of any air in the system, so I now have nice toasty heaters rather than a cold air blowing at me, oh and the thermostat reading worked properly which is typical after ordering a new one a few hours before.

So what next???

I'll replace the thermostat anyway just to be on the safe side, but what else should I try?

Change the oil & filter,

Another new set of plugs but with a slightly higher heat range

Change the HT leads as I don't know how old they are etc

Anything else???

Change the HT leads for sure, but don't change the plug heat grade since this can cause overheating or over cooling, plug gaps opening, and in extreme cases engine damage from detached electrodes.

If it is the valve stem seals which are at fault, how much of an utter **** it is to take the head off, strip down, replace the seals and rebuild.

lots of trouble doing that, since i think you have to remove the head gasquet to do it, with all that it emplies, but i'm no expert and the 1.6mpi is an entirely diffenrent engine that the one i have... but i dont think you have to do that

they get a little damage and dirt prevent them from sealing, if you do what i did it just might bring them back, just pray ha healthy ammount of DW-40 in the valve stem to clean out the seals, wait a while, spray some more and thats it, they should relax and clean enough to seal again ibelieve marvel mistery oil also claims to do that and you can apply that just y pouring into the oil (no need to take off the valve cover) and it will gradualy vaporize

did you check the valve clearance agaings the service manual ?

if the less you use it the better it feels the valves could be to tight (so a engine that is not used feel better than when used a lot)

so you changed to hotter plugs, and now crispy hot air (so the temp is in the midle all he time right?)... if so

any ammount of oil (if not too mutch) will burn away from the plugs and will not hinder operation, also instead of going into dirty - cleaning cycles it will just gradualy clean itself so you will see less and less smoke and better responce from the engine (as well as good FE so keep your eye on that)

keep us update, and please, firing end of plugs... photo

Change the HT leads for sure, but don't change the plug heat grade since this can cause overheating or over cooling, plug gaps opening, and in extreme cases engine damage from detached electrodes.

his previous plug where fouling, meaning the are to cold for his application, that's why i checked with bosh and looked up the plugs for the 1.6MPi, its the 9 - 10 heat range (middle heat range of course) so no worries if he got those

at any rate, hotter plugs wont over heat the engine, they refer to the temperature of the center electrode, witch need to be hot enough to clean itself (witch was obviously not happening) i read quite a lot on BOSH, NGK, BRISK, and different web sites regarding that subject

if he staid in the middle heat range plugs he should be ok

but please, too hot plug will also give you a bit of head ackes, so to be on the safe side could you disclose the part number and brand of plugs to check if there not the correct ones... and a pic of the old ones

his previous plug where fouling, meaning the are to cold for his application, that's why i checked with bosh and looked up the plugs for the 1.6MPi, its the 9 - 10 heat range (middle heat range of course) so no worries if he got those

Working from the OP, I got the feeling that the plugs were fouled by excess oil from what I now suspect to be siezed rings which have since freed themselves as a result of the seemingly calamitous trip described.

Of course, it could be partly down to a wrong choice of brand since some engines seem to particularly like a specific brand of plugs (and not always the ones the OEM uses either).

Working from the OP, I got the feeling that the plugs were fouled by excess oil from what I now suspect to be siezed rings which have since freed themselves as a result of the seemingly calamitous trip described.

Of course, it could be partly down to a wrong choice of brand since some engines seem to particularly like a specific brand of plugs (and not always the ones the OEM uses either).

that or incorrect valve timing wich are making the valve seals to leak oil, but not a biggy any way i see it, that's why i asked him to send a pic of the plugs, i mean, if its a little oil maybe where making a big fuss, maybe its not even oil but petrol and carbon buildup, at any rate, getting the engine to a good temp and the correct plugs is the first thing in order (as far as i belive)

i don't understand that eyther about the plugs, i tryed NGK, BOSH and now they told me to try BRISK they said that i wont regret it... why is it than egines "prefer" a specific brand

anyways, i di't book mark the pages that i found on my research, but there is a cross reference page between manufactures and also an application that thell you what plugs you should fit your engine (i'm a duff for not bookmarking)

Nobody really understands why some engines prefer Brand A to Brand B, but it's an observed fact (based on much testing). It's not a deliberate design thing, since PSA engines prefer NGK plugs!

Dumb question ahead > what do you mean PSA??

I have no idea.

My Felly did have NGK plugs in before. I did change to Bosch ones and they would have been changed at 120k had the HG not got destroyed.

Will be trying Bosch super 4 in the Favorit.

Dumb question ahead > what do you mean PSA??

that's citroen/peugeot group

Lumpy running. fouled plugs. blue smoke. .... over filled oil ???

i would check that the oil seperator unit on the back of the block isn't clogged up with smeggy oil

Will be trying Bosch super 4 in the Favorit.

Bosch Super 4's were always what I used in my Favorit