I took the car along to the Seatcupra.net North East RR day today at Motoscope in Northallerton. Superb weather and made all the better as the issues I was having with the car are all fixed (touch wood) and its running very well, no hesetations etc

Before I disclose the figures I know that there will be those out there who say that the rollers cant have been acurate etc etc etc

We ran over 10 cars today and the standard ones made the numbers they should be making and the modified ones also hit the estimated targets so we all felt the rollers to be accurate.

So what did my car make?.....278.1 BHP and 298.5lbft :eek:

We did 3 runs and my lowest was 272bhp and the middle one was 276bhp.

Dyno charts below.

http://briskoda.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=27740&stc=1&d=1237660097

http://briskoda.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=27741&stc=1&d=1237660097

Nice smooth curve and no fueling issues. Torque was also very strong. Car feels incredible to drive, i only fixed the problems yesterday so havent had much chance until today to enjoy it.

Mods on the car include:

Stage 2 Bluefin

Pipe Werx 3" downpipe and 200Cel sports cat

Nuspeed P-flow

Custom CAI adapter mounting the filter behind the passenger side fog light

I also fitted a new "G" revision DV

Superb stuff. 78bhp for £1000

Edited 21 March, 200917 yr by Hofmiester
Spelling

Are you sure it was 27.5' today??

Before you break out the champange I'd get it checked elsewhere.

Haha.. Stu, I should have known you would be the first person to question it

To be fair, it was warm in the bay, not sure if it was 27c but it was warm.

I'm not looking to chase numbers like some guys, even if that figure is 10 bhp out (although other cars did make normal figures) its still a very good result.

But then I forget....I know nothing about tuning so what do I know

It was about 15' mid day.

Met Office: Leeming: latest weather

I'm not 'questioning it' merely trying to point you in the right direction

I see so many of these 'rogue' results and it bugs me that people are effectively being mis-sold. You pay your money and you expect an accurate result (obviously within the capabilities of the equipment)

It's easy to spot a poorly setup result, the atmospherics for a start closely followed by the fact that due to the nature of the correlation HP/Torque the graph should normally cross at 5250rpm when properly scaled. Your's is scaled differently for HP/Torque so won't cross at 5250rpm.

There are some basic calulations the can be used to check the figures roughly - HowStuffWorks "How do you convert engine torque to horsepower?"

And of course, I didn't say you know nothing about tuning

I find that result hard to believe i have a few more mods than you but less a down pipe and there is no way on this earth a down pipe will get 22bhp.

Your torque seems to be a bit up and down. Were your wheels slipping on the dyno?

Do you have a standard fuel pump?

At the end of the day the numbers don't mean much as long as your happy with the setup and how it drives. Just don't be suckered into everything you read. After all it says OXO on buses but they dont sell them

Carl:thumbup:

Car was running great today, Ron. Very impressed with it

Cheers damo, was a great day, thanks for organising it

At the end, it goes well and I am happy.

There's always more to be gained but I'm not chasing numbers just want a car that drives well.

Would love to see what others running the same software as me get as that's a much better comparison.

Superb stuff. 78bhp for £1000

erm sorry to p1ss on yer fire, but one of those figures aint right!

I must admit those results were way up on what i was expecting. They quoted me around those figures for the stage 2+ map. One of the key things that made me a little dubious though, is that the torque is so high yet you have no fuel cuts. I thought thats why the revo stg 2 map was only around 270Ibft(ish), meaning fuel cuts did not occur. the air intake has prob allowed the engine to see a futher 8-10 bhp and Ibft torque though.But like you said even if they are 10bhp out the results would still be good and you are more than happy with the car. Ill hopefully have mine done soon, so il get the comparison. drkuthan has his stage 2 modded, do you know if he has had a RR test on his.

To be fair, the numbers could be out, I am aware of that, but there was still nothing to suggest that on the day. There were people there running cars tuned way beyond any on here (that they had built themselves) and none of those guys suspected foul play with my figures.

Even if the ambient temp is wrong thats still maybe 10 bhp difference.....very good result even then.

Its funny how critical you guys get though, Simon is probably the only person who has given a measured reply with some helpful ideas. Sarcasm doesnt help anyone.

"I find that result hard to believe i have a few more mods than you but less a down pipe and there is no way on this earth a down pipe will get 22bhp."

When I researched this upgrade, I called a lot of people and scoured forums etc. In the end, the only proven parts to give good gains are the DP, CAT, Stage 2, CAI and the fuel pump if you are having fuel issues....any extra mods like Nuspeed turbo pipes, forge DVs, intercoolers just help with power reliability or havent been proven to actually work (Nuespeed turbo pipes)

When I got the DP and CAT made up, the expert who built it said that the gains from the rest of the exhaust are neglegable (he could have said otherwise and I would have bought the full TBE from him).

Based on this list, the only mod I am missing here is the fuel pump and thats because I'm not having any issue with fuel. We checked this with Vagcom yesterday.

"erm sorry to p1ss on yer fire, but one of those figures aint right!"

I could have spent a lot more for the same stuff. For example:

Bluefin Stage 1 + Stage 2 uprade (Free) = £400

Nuspeed Intake + Custom CAI piping (home made) = £150

DP and CAT = £450

"G" revision DV = £30

£1030

Fitting was all done by me so no cost there. I could have walked into a tuner and spent....

Revo stage 2 = £750

Evoms intake = £300

Miltek TBE = £1000

Forge DV = £150

Nuespeed tubo pipes = £300

Fuel pump = £500

Misc fitting costs £400

Thats over £3000! but al lot of those parts aren't strictly needed.

Anyway, I had fun and these are the numbers. When I get on another roller they may be difference but for now these numbers are the only ones I have.

Your right that a DP is a good mod however it will only yield around 10bhp not 22bhp. The pump yields around 15-20 bhp and Revo stage 2 does not cost £750 i should know as thats what i have. I think you will find its nearer to £630 give or take a few quid

Im currently running 257bhp and 300lb/ft of torque. The reason i found the results hard to believe is because the torque is a spike and is only held at peak for couple of hundred revs then drops down quite sharply hence the reason i asked if your wheels were slipping on the RR. Also as Stu has already pointed out your torque and Bhp should cross at 5250 whereas yours dont.

Also if you look at other people who Stage 2 + they are only getting around 280bhp and about 30lb/ft more torque.

All other stage 2 cars i have seen generally hit around 260bhp. In fact iirc Makefish's old car which had far more mods on than yours and included a DP was the most powerful at stage 2 and he only got just over 260bhp. (he did eventually get more but that was with stage 2+ and an uprated pump internals)

Nobody was being critical all i, and i would suggest others, were saying is that the figure doesn't seem right for the mods you have. I would have been more inclined to believe it if you had an uprated pump.

As for the turbo pipe i can actually prove it does work. But it only gives around 5 bhp. I got 252bhp without the pipe and then last RR i got the 257bhp with the pipe so yes it does work but only yields around 5 bhp and same in torque.

You may also note in my previous post that i said the numbers don't matter much and its how you feel about it and how the car drives. As long as your happy with it then thats all that matters

As long as you are happy with the car that is all that matters and figure's are for bragging in pubs & car parks.

Carl:thumbup:

Edited 22 March, 200917 yr by Mater

Surely a fuel pump cant giving you 15-20bhp. All the uprated fuel will do is prevent fuel starvation, surely.......

Its funny how critical you guys get though, Simon is probably the only person who has given a measured reply with some helpful ideas. Sarcasm doesnt help anyone.

Ron

I thought I did my best to offer some helpful and constructive ideas, I'm certainly not trying to berate you. As I made clear above, it's a pet hate that I have where the operator of the RR doesn't have the decency to make sure he has the correct settings on the equipment when taking the measurement.

As I am sure you know the measurement of Flywheel HP is based on a calculation using some correction factors, if these correction factors are wrong then you cannot hope to get an accurate result.

This is quite an interesting read - Equations: Dyno Correction Factor and Relative Horsepower

In an effort to give a more 'measured reply' I'll illustrate some figures using an online calculator for the correction factor - Horsepower Design Equations Formulas Calculator - Dyno Correction Factor Dynamometers

If we take your given result of 276.1hp and divide that by the correction factor used on the day (100.3%) it should give you an uncorrected figure of 2.7527.

Using the calculator to give a correction factor for a more reasonable temperature of 15'C and the 1022mbar pressure we get 0.9437.

Multiply the uncorrected figure of 2.7527 by the revised correction factor of 94.37 it will give a corrected figure of 259.776hp which I think you will agree is at the top end of the more realistic numbers given the mods to your car. I hope this serves to illustrate how the wrong numbers used in the correction factor can affect the result. The correction factor will change throughout the day as the atmospherics change and thus should be reviewed by the operator before every run on the dyno.

To echo what has been said above the numbers are irrelevent if the car drives well and you are happy with it.

As I am sure you realise, I have invested a considerable sum of money in tuning the TFSi engine, and whilst I don't prefess to know everything, I have at least tried many of the currently available options available for that engine. I think I can safely say I never chased numbers but tried to explore where I felt the car performed better and my view on that is that in truth anything more than around 250hp and 300lbft is more than enough for the front wheel drive KO3 engined car. This does change slightly if you fit a KO4 because the power delivery is smoother.

Surely a fuel pump cant giving you 15-20bhp. All the uprated fuel will do is prevent fuel starvation, surely.......

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would tend to agree with you, but there is very clear evidence that fitting an uprated fuel pump does in fact give quite significant gains.

I cant find the old thread about it but if you try a search there is plenty of information on here.

PS. Stu, it's a shame your school work wasn't on RR theory and data calculataion

Edited 22 March, 200917 yr by Makefish

I must admit those results were way up on what i was expecting. They quoted me around those figures for the stage 2+ map. One of the key things that made me a little dubious though, is that the torque is so high yet you have no fuel cuts. I thought thats why the revo stg 2 map was only around 270Ibft(ish), meaning fuel cuts did not occur. the air intake has prob allowed the engine to see a futher 8-10 bhp and Ibft torque though.But like you said even if they are 10bhp out the results would still be good and you are more than happy with the car. Ill hopefully have mine done soon, so il get the comparison. drkuthan has his stage 2 modded, do you know if he has had a RR test on his.

The results are great, congratulations to Hofmiester Dear Simon, i live in a small city here and have no chance for dyno testing unless i find some time off work and go to Istanbul. If i can do that, sure i will let you know.

christ this thread is certainly becoming angry........Remember EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!!!

REFERENCE THE FUEL PUMP.- I thought that the Remap figures were restricted by the output capacity of the Oem fuel pump. therefore when a new uprated pump(or internals) are put on a more aggressive map can be put on to yield more power with the extra fuel now available. hence the extra bhp and Ibft(correct me if im wrong)

PEAK TORQUE FIGURES- Im thinking your peak torque figures might not actually be that far off actually. When i did the RR at JKM with stage 2 bluefin but with no supporting modifications to allow the map to run as intended, my peak torque hit 270Ibft. So with a Air intake and DP and Cat it might be possible to yield 300Ibft torque quite easily.

Also like carl says the spiking and up and downness(if thats a word) could easily have been caused by wheel slip on the dyno.

RR DYNO RUNS - Im inclined to side with the guys on the lazyness of the mechanics/technicians not entering the correct settings on the dyno computer therfore potentially giving inaccurate readings. If i pay good money for a RR id like to think that no corners were cut and that my results were accurate.

Reference those calculations and link.....what vRStu said.

Id be over the moon with 259.77bhp

So to update 59.77bhp for £1030. Frankly thats pretty awesome for bhp per pound.

Edited 22 March, 200917 yr by simonskerton
because i cant spell

drkuthan.

Thats just lazy:P. you should show your dedication to this forum by driving to Istanbul at the earliest opportunity for a RR graph to solve this argument

Sy:thumbup:

drkuthan.

Thats just lazy:P. you should show your dedication to this forum by driving to Istanbul at the earliest opportunity for a RR graph to solve this argument

Sy:thumbup:

Working at a private hospital as their only ob&gyn ... for this reason i have a little time on my own, but when i find the time i will bring my ultimate RS project to life (at least 500 hp is my target). I hope to go to Istanbul in 2 weeks and then i can show the results here.

Thats more like it Stu, cheers. I felt a little hacked off as to be fair, on the day I said that I would be happy with anything over 250 as thats what I expected, so when you guys all start shooting the numbers to bits with no explanations I'm bound to get cheesed off

Anyway all that stupid stuff aside

I also looked at this more simple guideline Puma Race Engines Technical Guide - Coastdown Losses as measured on Rolling Road dynos

"To estimate true flywheel power from wheel power just apply the rules given at the start of this articles in reverse.

FWD cars - add 10 to the wheel bhp and then divide the result by 0.9"

Simplified and not as accurate but if the BHP at the wheels is right then....

The dyno chart shows 239bhp at the wheels for the best run (278.1 at the fly) but using the above figures from the webpage that works out at more like 276.6bhp

Also, your figures are based on 276bhp, the best run was 278bhp and also temprature wise..... it was 16c in york yesterday which is pretty near Northallerton. Yesterday's extremes

The garage fans were terrible and it was hot in there. I think it would be safe to say 20c at least.

I did 3 RR runs, one at 272...278...276 and the curve for torque was identical for each so unless the tyres slipped at identical times, I doubt that. Also the operator discounted quite a few runs when peoples tyres did slip so I dont think he was just bodging this out.

But even at 259.776hp as you say, thats some bloody good gains for the money spent. The car drives great too so I am happy.

Next time there is an RR day I'll try to get along there.

Mater "Your right that a DP is a good mod however it will only yield around 10bhp not 22bhp. The pump yields around 15-20 bhp and Revo stage 2 does not cost £750 i should know as thats what i have. I think you will find its nearer to £630 give or take a few quid"

When I called REVO about stage 2 with the SPS switch it was £750, The switch is £100 so I think your price is right but not with the switch, I wanted it switchable for the warrentee issues hence bluefin.

With regard to the fuel pump, I find 15-20 hard to believe as I spoke to quite a few people and they were saying it only makes up for what the map is calling for. Eg if the map is requesting more fuel than the pump can deliver then an uprated one will allow the map to fulfil its potential. If the map doesnt call for the fuel then the fuel pump makes no difference.

Ron

I thought I did my best to offer some helpful and constructive ideas, I'm certainly not trying to berate you. As I made clear above, it's a pet hate that I have where the operator of the RR doesn't have the decency to make sure he has the correct settings on the equipment when taking the measurement.

As I am sure you know the measurement of Flywheel HP is based on a calculation using some correction factors, if these correction factors are wrong then you cannot hope to get an accurate result.

This is quite an interesting read - Equations: Dyno Correction Factor and Relative Horsepower

In an effort to give a more 'measured reply' I'll illustrate some figures using an online calculator for the correction factor - Horsepower Design Equations Formulas Calculator - Dyno Correction Factor Dynamometers

If we take your given result of 276.1hp and divide that by the correction factor used on the day (100.3%) it should give you an uncorrected figure of 2.7527.

Using the calculator to give a correction factor for a more reasonable temperature of 15'C and the 1022mbar pressure we get 0.9437.

Multiply the uncorrected figure of 2.7527 by the revised correction factor of 94.37 it will give a corrected figure of 259.776hp which I think you will agree is at the top end of the more realistic numbers given the mods to your car. I hope this serves to illustrate how the wrong numbers used in the correction factor can affect the result. The correction factor will change throughout the day as the atmospherics change and thus should be reviewed by the operator before every run on the dyno.

To echo what has been said above the numbers are irrelevent if the car drives well and you are happy with it.

As I am sure you realise, I have invested a considerable sum of money in tuning the TFSi engine, and whilst I don't prefess to know everything, I have at least tried many of the currently available options available for that engine. I think I can safely say I never chased numbers but tried to explore where I felt the car performed better and my view on that is that in truth anything more than around 250hp and 300lbft is more than enough for the front wheel drive KO3 engined car. This does change slightly if you fit a KO4 because the power delivery is smoother.

with the fuel pump its not so much a big hike in bhp, its more of a big hike in torque.

revo stage 2 gives around 300Ib/ft. The stage 2+ with the fuel pump puts out 345Ibft. Thats a pretty large hike.

And if you can get the autotech internals for the pump done cheap, What a car you will have for a real small amount of money.

The on engine fuel pump is as you know cam driven. Being cam driven there is a direct correlation between fuel pump delivery and engine speed. Where the OEM pump fails to perform is in the mid range where the engine speed is not sufficent to sustain the demand from the ECU software.

I see, so that lack of delivery in the middle of the range is why we often see cars with the pump putting out significantly more torque? I doubt it would effect the top end figures that much though?

Simon, I have found that star performance will do the autotech internals fitted on a post and return service for £250+vat, there is also a guy in sheffield that I got a number for from one of the seat guys. Gona call him this week too.

Only thing is, I'm a little hesetant. I don't want to have to keep an eye on that cam follower every 10k :( also the car is rapid now, so rapid that if you overtake full blast in 2 or 3rd the torque steer is pretty voilent. Not sure if its the standard suspension I'm running but more power may not be much more fun....chasing numbers as I keep mentioning eventually stops being engoyable.

The fuel pump is one of the better upgrades as it has most of it's effect in the mid range which is where you spend most of your time.

Hmmmmm i might save that one for when i get used to the current batch of upgrades......some time next week

My top five mods for the MkII Octy vRS from personal experience in order of 'effectiveness' and bang for buck would be:

1. REVO remap - a real nocticable improvement in performace and drivability, it's what the car should be from the factory imo.

2. KONI FSD's - fantastic value for money and perfect for improving road holding/cornering abilty without jarring your spine.

3. Uprated Fuel Pump - improves mid range punch immensely, ironing out any issues with fuel cut (must be done in conjunction with Stage II+ to get the best out of it imo)

4. EVOMS - not a huge increase in power (maybe 7-8bhp over a standard OEM panel filter) but improves power delivery and audible pleasure.

5. tbh I cant really think of what I'd put in fifth position as all the other mods I did made very little impact ................. I'm not saying that there was no benefit in adding the other components only that their effectiveness was far less noticable.

My point is that the fuel pump upgrade is a very good way of upping performance and drivability and is right up there with the best modifications on the TFSi you can do. My only caveat to this is that if I were about to do the same thing now I'd save up the extra and buy the APR pump, not only does this have the uprated internals but other 'safety' factors built in to the pump design that the OEM version does not have (have a word with Keith at JKM about this, he has had a lot of experience with all types of fuel pump upgrades).