How do you change the timing chain? (Felicia GLi '98 petrol)

[angryroot]

Hi there!

I'm a newbie to this forum & have a query which I'm really hoping someone can help me with!!

I have a 1998 Felicia GLi 1.3 petrol estate and it has a noisy, rattling timing chain which we want to get replaced. Unfortunately, I'm a little bit skint (along with the rest of the country no doubt!) so we are going to do the DIY method!

Please could someone explain in steps on how to replace the timing chain? Is it easy to change as the Haynes manual seems to believe it's for "an experienced mechanic only" & the way they describe it will take days to do!

Thanks

[swedishskoda]

I have the 1.6 myself so never tried, but lots of others here have done it, and from their reports it doesn's sound as it should take days - one day more likely. Some information in this thread:

http://briskoda.net/favorit-felicia-fun-forman/noisy-felicia-1-3-engine/57334/

but the Haynes manual might be important for filling the gaps.

[tocsa135ls]

The Haynes manual is a must have if you don't have some experience working with engines. I did the chain swap on my '94 Favorit with some niggles, here it is in rough points:

- buy the following things with the new chain (god I hope I write the names correctly): new oil, oil filter, drive belt for the water pump and the alternator, oil pan seal, timing chain cover seal, and a crank pulley seal (it goes into the timing chain cover)

- warm up the engine, than drain oil, no need to let it drip, you're gonna take the pan off anyway

- while oil is flowing out, loosen the alternator, and take the belt off the engine

(if you have A/C, there's the A/C compressor to loosen, and another belt to take off)

- take the oil pan off (about 12 screws if I remember correctly)

- if yours has a distributor (supposedly not, it should be an MPi engine) note the wires position, and also the distributor housing position in relation to the cam cover, and also the rotor position

- loosen the big nut that holds the crank pulley (air tools are veeeeery useful!)

- pull out the crank pulley (the key should not fall out with it, if it does, pay attention, don't lose it)

- loosen the screws around the cam cover (i think two are simple slotted screws, the rest hex-head) and take the cover off (careful, the complete oil pump+pickup assy comes with it)

- now you can see your old chain+sprockets - in my experience it starts to make a sound when you can move the lower part of it about 1/3 inch with finger pressure

. there is a securing washer holding the sprocket on the camshaft, you have to bend it back, off the screw, then loosen the screw, so you can take the washer off

Next two steps critical, really buy a Haynes manual, or get a friend who knows engines.

- pull the old chain with the sprockets off the shafts

- the new chain shoud be put on the shafts in a certain position (the marks on the sprockets facing you should be both on the upper side, with 12 chain links between them)

- loosen all the spark plugs, and put the crank pulley back, and give the engine two complete revolutions - it should not stick, clunk, grind, or any of that, and at the end, the two marks on the sprockets should be in their original position

- well... from here back is fairly easy, just put everything back in order, change the oil filter, torque everything back to spec, fill it with oil, tighten the spark plugs back, and try to start it, should fire up just fine with no noise at all

As a finishing step I checked my valve clearances too. My next 'big' job is to change my cam followers, as with the now silent chain and point-on clearances I still hear some tapping sounds

[Guest masster]

but how to have access in that tight area ? there is not much room between the front right wing and the engine...

[SkFeli]

Tocsa, thanks for the very useful post.

I have few questions.

Did you put the crankshaft in some fixed position (my handbook says to align a mark on the pulley with a 0 on the engine block)?

Do I have to take care about the position of the thing that connects to the gear on the camshaft where old skodas have a distributor?

[djaychela]

The crank needs to be in the position shown in the picture you linked to on another thread - that will set everything correctly - I'm pretty sure that's at TDC on #1 from memory.

The thing you are talking about isn't important in terms of position, it's the drive for the oil pump, which you will have needed to remove anyway to get to the gears, so put the drive in place and then put the oil pump gear to engage into that. There is no critical positioning of it.

[Guest masster]

There is a special device in the Haynes manual (MP 1-504) for stopping the crankshaft from spinning while unscrewing that overtighten crankshaft pulley screw (see photo below)

Not knowing for sure how the Felicia engine looks like from below after removing the oil sump, I am asking you this:

1) can you really have access to that hole indicated by the red arrow ?

2) how efficient you find this device ? after reading that an extension rod snapped... I fear for cracking the gearbox bellhouse around the above hole.

And while we are talking about timing, I have 3 more questions concerning the valve clearance adjustment:

3) Haynes manual says this after putting all parts back: "Inspect timing when engine cold; set valve clearance at inlet and exhaust valves to 0.43 mm for this step.". Is this right ???

4) what is the easiest way to rotate the crankshaft for aligning the sign on the flywheel ?

5) does anyone have a photo slideshow (I don't dare asking for a video) of each step for setting the valve clearance ? to me it still looks awkward the order for valves adjustment, the cylinder overlapping, the sign alignment on the flywheel, etc. oh well... I am a visual guy...

[Phil-E]

When I did mine I had to drop the engine down as there wasn't enough clearance to get the crank pully off!

The easiest way to turn the engine to do the clearances is to jack the front wheel up, put the car in fifth gear and turn the wheel which will turn the engine. Remove the spark plugs too to reduce compression and make it easier.

That clearance given sounds too high. I thought it was more like 0.10 and 0.20 but don't quote me on that as I can't find my old haynes right now.

Phil

[Guest masster]

related to question 2) from my last post, please have a look at this crankshaft blocking device made of plastic :no: for newer cars... what do you think ?

and perhaps somebody can answer to questions 1), 3) and 5).

[djaychela]

Hi Masster

1: Access is not possible like that - that's with the gearbox removed. In practice I have always been able to remove Felicia/Fav crank bolts by putting the car in gear, and getting an assistant to put the brakes on while I undo the bolt using a long extension bar - once I broke a universal joint (for the socket) doing one, but nothing else (and it was crap anyway!). If that doesn't work, then it would be possible to get -some- access to the starter ring gear by removing the starter, but it won't be much. On other cars I've done it using a pry bar, but it's quite difficult.

3) Yeah, that's too much, Haynes says 0.25mm inlet, 0.20 exhaust (that's for Felicia with different material pushrods for inlet and exhaust) Valve clearances won't have changed because of changing the timing chain anyway, though.

4) Turn the crank with a socket with the car in neutral. Dead easy and precise.

5) Been a while but I think you can do the valve clearances by using a "mirror image" across the engine - when valve #1 is at full lift, then valve 8 clearance can be done, 2-7, 3-6 and so on. Don't take this as gospel though, I think this would need someone confirming it.

[Guest masster]

1: Access is not possible like that - that's with the gearbox removed.

I knew it! So even Haynes manual stinks sometimes...

on the other hand, about using a pry bar for unscrewing the crankshaft bolt... Haynes manual recommends a 120 Nm torque for tightening which is pretty much the same torque used for wheel nuts (110 Nm) that are not so hard to unscrew. So why such a big mess ?

3) Yeah, that's too much, Haynes says 0.25mm inlet, 0.20 exhaust (that's for Felicia with different material pushrods for inlet and exhaust) Valve clearances won't have changed because of changing the timing chain anyway, though.

so again Haynes manual sucks :wonder:

I have to adjust the clearances though... probably 30K miles since last check.

4) Turn the crank with a socket with the car in neutral. Dead easy and precise.

you mean with the car jacked, right wheel out. So it's a 2 person job: one to turn the crank, one to look for sign alignment.

[djaychela]

Well, yes, but you can turn the engine easily enough when you've loosened the crank nut off and then get it lined up. The engine will turn easily if you get the spark plugs out - there will be no compression. It's not a 2-person job, you can easily do it on your own.

[Guest masster]

it is my turn to sweat on changing the timing chain.

but my concerns are slightly different. my car has a 135 engine type with carburetor and distributor and haynes manual is (again) somehow misleading because 'marking' the distributor housing and rotor cap position is quite inaccurate...

so I have to ask for your help in clearing a few issues:

- if I rotate the crankshaft to TDC of cyl. 1, after removing the chain cover will I find the chain having 12 link pins between timing gear markings like in the haynes picture ? my impression is yes, I will, and all I have to do is get chain and gears out, put gears and chain in EXACTLY the same position.

- will I have problems fitting the new, tighter chain on crankshaft and camshaft axles ?

- what if when I 'fight' with the crankshaft belt pulley the engine rotates and I lose the correspondence with distributor position ? this is my biggest fear, to not desynchronize the ignition

- are there any other common mistakes made when changing the chain ? the last thing I need is to have backfire in carburetor or exhaust explosions or a piston hitting a valve...

-

Edited 31 July, 2011 by masster

[djaychela]

Everything will be the same, camchain wise. It's the same engine.

New tight chain will not be a problem to get it on. Just slide both pulleys on at the same time and it'll be fine.

To get the distributor back where it should be, set the engine to TDC on 1 before you take anything apart, take the dizzy cap off and TAKE A PICTURE. Then you will be able to put it back where you need to once you put the cover back on. It'll take a couple of goes (as the worm gear will turn the dizzy as you put it down the hole) but it's easy enough.

From what Jim has said in the past, the valves don't hit the pistons even with the chain broken (I think?), but you'd have to be WAY off to get it that wrong even if they did. Just be methodical and take pictures as you go and it'll be fine.

[Guest masster]

I'm stuck. I have 2 problems.

Problem 1.

I was preparing myself to set the engine to TDC on 1, but again things look different in reality than in Haynes manual. See photo below.

As you can see, there are no digits engraved on the engine block, only some 'ridges'. Where is 0 (zero) ? God help me...

And what is even worse, there is NO marking on crankshaft belt pulley, no matter how well I washed it. Now what ?

Problem 2.

See photo below from Haynes.

What I don't understand is this: after setting the engine (by God's mercy) to TDC 1, WHY should I rotate item 2 - distributor rotor arm to opposite the marking on distributor housing before pulling it out ??? Rotating it would offset TDC 1 because they are linked (not to mention you need a lot of force). Shouldn't be enough to just pull it out in whatever position is found at TDC 1 and after changing the timing chain just put it back as it was ?

[djaychela]

To find TDC, just remove a spark plug and poke something like a cable tie down the bore so you can feel where the piston is. It'll be close enough to get you what you need.

Once you've done that, just take a photo of the rotor arm position and all will be fine.

[Guest masster]

I managed to find those markings by accident and by using a microscope

Here's why: I was expecting degrees to be visible from above, perpendicular to crankshaft, but no... you have to have prior knowledge they are marked flush on tining gear cover :no:

what about the white line, dot, scale or ball other cars have marked for showing TDC ?

well, you see that tiny dent showed above in a red rectangle ? I didn't..

I promise to get back with what I found on this occasion so other users have a slightly easier life when doing timing chain.

till then, I have one advice for you: do NOT take Haynes manual ad literam. in many cases, Haynes is a bad joke and I can prove it.

[vyex]

Hey guys, can someone tell me is it normal that after replacing chain there is a bit of whining noise coming from the engine compartment?-it's not a particulary loud noise, but it gets stronger proportional to the throttle, something like supercharger noise...?-does the chain needs some time to strech and fit to stop that noise, or did i ruined main camshaft bearing by any chance?

[adurer]

There should be no noise. Most probably distribution gears are not perfectly aligned and they grind on timing chain. But 'noise coming from the engine compartment' is very vague. Use a stethoscope to locate it or make a video and get camera closer to suspected location.

Edited 6 August, 2013 by adurer

[vyex]

damn...can that do any serious harm or should i disassemble it back and recheck.?..cause with chain kit i bought  i got some distance washers too, but they are thin like a paper, so i thought that they can't do any diference even if i put them anywhere...
And i'm pretty sure that it comes from under distributor hatch, cause day before i changed the chain, noise wasnt there, and i didnt touched anything else...

Edited 6 August, 2013 by vyex

[adurer]

damn...can that do any serious harm 

Well... it will wear out gears and chain very quickly.

 

Note: gears should fit on shafts without using a hammer!

 

Edited 6 August, 2013 by adurer

[vyex]

Smells like bad alignment to me too...so i'll dissasemble that once again and measure the new sprocket, and the old one, so i'll see what's what...so i'll let you know did it solved the problem
But it's amazing and to me it's hard to believe that 0.15 mm can do that type of 'mess' cause i don't have that level of experience...but we'll see.-thanx anyway

Edited 7 August, 2013 by vyex

[vyex]

Ok, here's the deal...i measured smaller sprocket, and it turned out to be exactly 0.15 mm smaller than the old one, but the whining problem stil persists...and i've noticed that gear from the oil pump is not properly aligned with its drivegear cause there are signs of improper wearing out, and that is probably resulting with that whining noise...i really don't know what to do next...i don't know why is this happening, cause i didn't took apart the pump, just took it off along with the chain lid. Can pumps axle be adjusted towards its drivegear in some way? I was thinking of putting back old sprockets and new chain, cause i seriously suspect that someting isn't right with sprockets...
Any advice would be usefull from anyone

Edited 7 August, 2013 by vyex

[adurer]

Make a video showing your engine running. Preferably on daylight to see everything clear. Try to locate where the noise is louder and get us there. If possible take us under the car too, that may help. Put the video on youtube or similar. 

[vyex]

I got nothing to film with...cell phone has a crappy camera so it'll be no good...at idle sounds normal, but when throttle is applied it starts to sound like supercharged car from mad max ...only not so loud...i'm pretty sure that it has something to doo wih oil pump, only i have to figure out what :/