Bear in mind the haldex has a slight "helping" quality even with ESP off...

When cornering, the more lock the better, the haldex actually picks up that the front wheels are rotating faster than the rears, as they have to cover a longer distance in the same time.

(think abut this for a moment, play with toy cars or draw a diagram, it will make sense soon )

So, the haldex *thinks* there is some slip at the front and pushes the torque towards the rear, giving a more neutral edge to power out of it.

It's not the Active Yaw Control the Evo's have, but it's a nice "feature" even if it kinda happens by accident.

Try it, ESP off, wet tight corner, load up the suspension with a slow but tight turn, then boot it, you get a lovely tail out oversteer \ 4 wheel drift.

Originally posted by ColinD in this post

As per Ian I tend to leave ESP on in the dry and wet just to catch any issues in cornering, especially roundabout surveys.

As we have the most number of roundabouts in any town in the UK (M.K), I had better leave ESP on from now on !

MK is great on a sunday or late at night, straight blasts and lots of "chicane" roundabouts to flow through, with excellent visability and empty roads!

(used to live in Northants)

Right, did some wet-weather standing starts myself today, as we finally had a typically Dutch spring day full of showers. (I promised myself that's the last time I've been in eager anticipation of one!)

Tried quite a few demon starts out of puddles, on a very slippery brick surface, and got away cleanly on all but one, which had just a momentary slip of the front wheels before catching on - not much, but enough to make it noticeable. This was with ESP on. With ESP off there was no problem, but all of the other ESP starts went fine too.

I'm beginning to be mystified by Rob's problem.

Or is it problems?

Is the first problem (car in motion, flooring it in second, resulting power cut, engine picking up again) related to the second one he mentions later on (wheelspin away from a start on a wet surface)?

I'm still thinking the first problem is ECU-related, probably the wastegate opening after too much throttle, resulting in overboost in the turbo. Have noticed myself that flooring it can have this effect, with a more appropriate throttle approach leading to a better end result.

What Rob describes - power cut, pick up, power cut, pick up, all while keeping his foot down - sounds awfully like "surging". This can be the ECU unable to keep up with measuring the pressure - this will have a bit of shuddering effect while hard on the throttle.

Another reason is too much exhaust gases coming into the turbo, which is already spinning at top rpm, leading to the gases running into an "air wall" and being bumped back into the exhaust valve. This is very bad and can, in the end, lead to turbo damage. On the occasion itself, the ECU will temporarily shut off into limp mode before picking up again.

But I don't think the latter explanation fits with flooring in 2nd, probably from low revs. Exhaust gas shut-out will only happen at high revs, with the turbo already spinning wildly and then trying to top that. So probably just an ECU wobble (what about a read-out, just to check its fault log?).

Also, the standard wastegate can handle pressures up to 1.2 bar. You run a bigger risk of surging after replacing it with a valve that will only open the wastegate at higher pressures, not after chipping the engine per se.

So would the second problem indeed equate to a "lazy" Haldex? Never heard of such a thing before!

Originally posted by Dutch4x4 in this post

So would the second problem indeed equate to a "lazy" Haldex? Never heard of such a thing before!

Dutch

I was glad to be able to take the car to the Briskoda rolling road day today at Jabbasport. It was producing a healthy 220 cv/bhp on 95RON unleaded so I'm happy with that.

The guys said that, yes, it did seem a little 'grabby' on transferring the power from front to rear, but it still seemed to be working ok. They also said that the haldex is normally 'bomb-proof' !

It only seems to happen in the straightahead position and in the wet from stop or low speeds. With steering angle it doesn't seem to be a problem.

What I'm going to do is have the Haldex gear oil changed at the next service and be more progressive with 1st and 2nd gear acceleration in the wet.

If you have any more ideas please post !:cheers:

ALL 4X4 OWNERS !

----------------------

I 'THINK' I may have an explanation - which I'd like your views on please.

I bought the car from a Skoda dealer with 19000m the clock and they serviced it before collection.

I've just read the service book and it states that the Haldex gear oil needs changing at 30000km (ie 20000m). The dealer has not ticked the 'Change Haldex Oil' box. Could this explain why the Haldex is suffering from 'laziness' ? (Now on 25,000m)

I know that the gearbox in my first Legacy Turbo (in 1995) was easier when the oil had been changed.

I'm hoping that this might explain things. What do you think and any ideas on the price ?

Get the Haldex oil changed asap for peace of mind and see if there is any improvement. As for price, try asking the dealer to do the job for free since it should really have been done when the car was serviced at 19000 miles. big k can probably advise how long the job should take and whether it is difficult.

Ok - I've had the Haldex Oil and Filter changed at the local Skoda dealer (car was supplied used elsewhere and they missed the change in the last service) and it does seem smoother already in delivering / transferring the power.

I'll give it a few miles and some wet roads to see if the couple of wild wheelspin moments have been banished for good.

Something for 4x4 owners to bear in mind as your cars get some miles under their belts.

- every 20000m - Haldex Oil (

ESP? I think extra sensory perception comes in very useful when driving. It means you can spot the Ar*ehole thats about to cut you up, before you even physically see him/her. Very useful indeed!

What do you mean him/her ??????

Always a "him" in my experience !!!!!!!

Ah - this equality stuff cuts both ways, you know :nono:

Haha - I was attempting to exercise political correctness. From now on I'll just think SOD IT! - and assume its always a bloke. I just don't want to be seen as masogonistic (thats a big word for me, especially on a monday)

masogonistic

Too big a word, Jason! I'm surprised that JaneC hasn't corrected you - misogynous is the word you want.

an' don' dis da ESP, man.

I is going back to da hood and is standing corrected! I alwayz thort mie spelin waz a bitt dojjy

Yesterday I managed to get the traction triangle warning light flashing when powering hard out of an open, empty roundabout on lock in 3rd and into 4th gear. It was slippy, but the car is a 4x4.

So

1) Is this normal ?

2) Are the electronics a waste of time as surely the 4x4 should have taken over and swapped the power around before the traction /ESP light flashed

:soapbox:

the electronics are a waste of time.

... so that answers 2). What about 1) ! :wave:

Here's my little observation for the self-help group. I've been off alcohol for a day, now (applause). I took a left into a country road in 2nd gear at about 10mph ie no turbo yet. At this sort of speed in second, I tend to floor it, until about 25 mph and then change up if I'm not in a hurry. Anyway, this time it felt flat and juddered a little. As this was the "first time", my first thought was, "Oh ***k," followed by, "I wonder what that little orange light means?"

Once I figured out I had triggered the ESP, I decided that I'd go back and have another look at the road - perhaps it was covered with mud or something. No! So other than the fact that I applied some steering lock there was nothing to trigger the ESP.

Is this normal?

Simon

Congratulations on achieving an alcohol-free state of mind

Long may it last until Christmas - that's my plan anyway !

I still cannot work out sometimes how the traction control, Esp, AND Haldex 4x4 work together when accelerating on slippy roads ! Also, its interesting that in most (but not all) of my 'WHY DID IT DO THAT?' moments, I have been accelerating hard on a wet road with steering lock on.

There are some times when I think "why didn't it just transfer some more power to the rear, instead of cutting the power or applying the brakes" Other times I can feel the steering wheel 'tighten up' as I presume torque is being transferred somewhere else.

To be honest I hope we get a really slippy winter, then at least I will be able to work out what the car does and why ! I have also seen a couple of owners mention that they had lateral motion sensors replaced and wonder if this is a weakness ?

:eek:

Rob

Now I really am confused with the Octavia 4x4 system...

GOOD -

Went up North at the weekend in torrential rain, with DEEP lying water on the M6 and M6 Toll Road. Straightline stability was superb with no tugging throught the steering as I went in and out of water ... too fast. Really impressed.

BAD

Back home, pulling out at roundabout from rest "Bang-bang-bang, flash flash" as the car fights for traction and the traction control cuts in !?!

Is it me or is the 4x4 just too slow to react ?

(Bought some new tyres to cheer myself up, but still plenty of tread left)

Now I really am confused with the Octavia 4x4 system...

I think all we can say about the 4x4 system is that it is *safe*. And that, to be honest, is all I want 99.999% of the time.

It certainly is not predictable, especially with ESP switched on. When it's off things get a little more, umm, normal. For the record, disabling ESP does not disable the haldex.

I don't quite know how the ESP decides what to do - ie brake / cut power / shuffle power around using haldex etc. It needs someone who knows how to drive to do some testing. Unfortunately, everyone who would put themselves in that classification seems to have bought a vRS .

Well Simon, I class myself as an average driver and that's why I bought the RS. The 4x4 was just to unpredicatble for me with that ESP malarky. Due to my lack of competence behind the wheel, I want to know what my car is going to do as it avoids brown trouser moments.

The 4x4 was just to unpredictable for me with that ESP malarky.

My issue is that I'm used to 4WD systems with similar power where you don't have to think about traction when you plant the throttle. The rest of the Haldex set-up seems fine.

My problem is that its not all the time when there is a problem and with Forward Motors going under, I don't trust any other local'ish dealer to have the faintest idea on whether any of the 4x4 sensors / control unit are playing up. Some owners on here have had bits replaced and when the car was being Jabba'd, Mike thought the Haldex seemed a bit lazy ! This would explain why it feels superb in a steady'ish state, but unpredictable with sudden throttle/ steering/traction issues from rest.

I'm genuinely hoping for some bad weather so that I can prove to myself whether there is a problem or not ! In the meantime, I've replaced some half-worn tyres.

Can't say I have ever experienced a similar problem, Rob. The only time I had the ESP cut in was in a very obvious situation where I was very thankful that it did.

I feel the Haldex system is far from unpredictable, but it needs some getting used to when coming from 50/50 torque splits. It took some time for me to adapt from the Legacy - which was essentially a big throw-about kart - to the Octavia, which seemed to require a different cornering technique because it starts as a traditional FWD understeerer, not giving you the confidence a Subaru viscous coupling gives you. Carrying speed into a corner and somehow sorting it mid-way through came natural with the Legacy while the Octavia is more inviting to the usual cornering method, i.e. taking the speed out while still on the straight, then aiming for the apex before booting it.

In other words, with the Subaru you just knew you could chuck it into a corner violently and make it through, with the Haldex system you have to trust that it will sort you out, as it only comes in when it is needed. It's just that you don't want to try where there's no run-off area, so I took out the car to a deserted parking lot to find that you can carry speed into a corner in the Octavia and that the Haldex will do precisely that to pull (or rather, push) you through. It was a nice confirmation of my estimations, as the brake/turn-in/power-on approach always left me thinking afterwards, "Hey, I could have done that much faster!"

So wouldn't your history of a "lazy" Haldex point to an electronics glitch?

ESP FWD RS view point on snow.

SCARY!

Not sure why but with ESP on during a B road (5-20MPH speed in compact/slush) every time it hit the compacted glossy snow, i.e. no tarmac contact, it did it's thing, however as the asr is linked to the esp each time I applied power, to manouver the car, I think it got confused by the wheels slipping. Result: I was not really happy about being in the car as it was a little overcompensating for it's braking inputs, so esp off and restore manual control via handbrake, throttle and clutch.

However, later on when the conditions were less shall I say normal winter dusting. Variou bits of road were snowy comapcted on on wheel track, other side wet, ESP was doing wonderfull work in keeping it straight.

Since the ESP and ASR are linked in the RS, I think it's bad in the "snowy" situation, marginal where ice might be lurking or wet, seems fine, but not where you need to apply some deliberate spin to wheels and slide.

So good for normal driving to catch you as you get dozy, once you hit that snowy road where your not actually in contact with the tarmac anymore...not for me thanks.

Would the haldex and 4wd system be better? Possibly but no 4wd octy was avail for drive and we didn't know snow was on cards or the roads actually. Some tread on the tyres (proxes to wear markers) would of being a nice touch aswell I guess.