I've had the turbo intercooler hose blow off on my fabia, the CV joint go on the near side, consol bushes go. Numerous alternator belts snap, timing belt snap on a transit. Alternator failed.

Main air supply hose from compressor blow off on a bus whilst going up a mountain. Emptied the contents of the oil sump and coolant on a coach whilst driving on a motorway. Even had a side mirror fall off a bus whilst driving over cobbles.

Things do break. But you do get feedback from the vehicle.

The chances of a wheel falling off or the brakes or steering failing without any warning when driving normally are virtually nil. If you push a vehicle to its limits on a regular basis then things will snap off.

How many people can honestly say they check their vehicle before driving it? When was the last time they looked under the bonnet or even checked that the car had 4 wheels attached to it?

I've lost count of the number of vehicles I see on a daily basis with bulbs out, how do they get to the point where 2 our of 3 brake lights are out?

I had to tell a pupils mother to get her tyre replaced as it was down to the cord, no rubber on it at all.

She was oblivious to the fact the tyre was in that condition or that it was dangerous.

You are blaming your poor car control on the make of tyres you had on your car.

You went into a roundabout in the wet a bit too hard!

How can you turn that around to be the tyres fault? If you had been driving at an appropriate speed you would not have lost control in the first place.

Too hard for the POS tyres that were on the car! Not too hard in general. In the exact same circumstances on decent tyres the car behaved as I told it to. Until the tyres got changed to good ones, I adjusted my driving to compensate for this.

My car control was fine with decent tyres, thankyouverymuch.

I find your attitude to be very similar to a lot of driving instructors I've talked to. Self-righteous, and pig-headed.

As for the tyres and skidding discussion, i do have to agree that you "adapt to the given road conditions and levels of grip down to tyres "

The kuhmo 712's have left me feeling a little unsettled in wet conditions. And thats taking things easy, its almost as if your driving on snow or ice...you get a feeling that the cars not going to do what you want it to do and have to nurse it through a bend or a situation.

The vredsteins have left me feeling amazed at the levels of grip there is in the wet....but i've still to change the others to vredsteins, so its a case of minimizing the risk of getting into a skid.

Tyres can and do make the difference in how the car handles, and to think otherwise (like Mr Holier-Than-Thou driving instructor above) is completely brainless.

As enthusiasts and sensible car owners, most of us will check our cars. Please stop patronising us.

I bought mine because it was pretty....... Honest!

Being serious though things do go wrong, and sometimes there is a lead upto things going wrong, some dont.

The headgasket and the wishbone snapping were the instances that haven't given me any feedback until it went completely!

My dad pulled out of work once, got to the junction to the main road. As he set off there was a loud thump and alot of noise aswell as dragging metal noise. Turned out the backbox had snapped from the point going into the rear silencer dropping onto the road.

Some of these things you dont even think to check, but i tend to find most car exhausts rot from the inside out.

I know for a fact that boost hoses dont tend to give you much indication as to when there going to go without really going and looking for the pipe moving. Mine for a certain it went with a huge pop and then let go. I'd only taken the said pipe out a day earlier to inspect it for a boost leak i was encountering. Which was actually the inlet manifold blowing.

How many people do you know that are all mechanically minded and know what is what on a car part for part and what its there for?

The gf doesn't have a interest in doing anything other than driving her car, i look after it in terms of servicing and doing checks.

She does report back to me when she notices anything unusual with the car, and i investigate further.

I think saying performing checks can be beneficial which is is for any obvious fault, but for any small underlying problems that dont show up until its too late.

Too hard for the POS tyres that were on the car! Not too hard in general.

But if the tyres were a POS, why did you approach the roundabout too hard rather than accommodating for the tyres? You're blaming the tyres for causing you to slide, when you could have approached the roundabout less aggressively and they would have coped fine. You had the choice of making the car go slower so as to not overwhelm the grip available, and you didn't take that choice - that's not the fault of the tyres.

Whether you approached the roundabout too hard "in general" or not is irrelevant - in this case, for the capabilities of your car, you approached it too hard.

Rob.

But if the tyres were a POS, why did you approach the roundabout too hard rather than accommodating for the tyres? You're blaming the tyres for causing you to slide, when you could have approached the roundabout less aggressively and they would have coped fine. You had the choice of making the car go slower so as to not overwhelm the grip available, and you didn't take that choice - that's not the fault of the tyres.

Whether you approached the roundabout too hard "in general" or not is irrelevant - in this case, for the capabilities of your car, you approached it too hard.

Rob.

Yes, as I've said. I was going too fast for the tyres. At the time, I wasn't aware of just how bad they were, and times after that I adjusted speeds/lines etc to compensate for the reduced grip.

The tyres simply stopped gripping, and were not progressive up until that limit, which is why I lost traction. The tyres I put on after gave more feel and gripped better, allowing me to better judge what the front wheel were doing.

Tyres can blow for *seemingly* no reason- say if you pick up debris on the road, or if they are faulty (there was a big class action in the US for just that). Cars can develop faults even if correctly maintained, as Alex says.

Sudden faults don't really seem to be what the OP is alluding too though - it's more the cases where ambition exceeds talent and people blame something on their car.

If your suspension snaps and you end up in a ditch, it's fairly apparent as to the cause of the fault. By the same token it's fairly rare for this to happen - I would hazard a guess that the odds are less than 1% - and pragmatically you don't drive to accommodate your suspension failing, just as you don't drive to accommodate a meteor landing in the road in front of you.

However, as you move down the scale, there are things which which can be accommodated for and which do occur more often - things like motorcylists appearing alongside you quickly, or cars pulling out of junctions, or there being a horse in the road around a blind corner. So...if one of these three circumstances arose and an accident occurred, would you blame the car, or the other person, or would you think about what you could have done differently (ie. to try and avoid the accident, irrespective of the capabilities of the car or the behaviour of other road users)?

Oh, and that's a rhetorical question intended to stimulate introspective contemplation, I don't actually care about seeing an answer.

Rob.

Yes, as I've said. I was going too fast for the tyres. At the time, I wasn't aware of just how bad they were, and times after that I adjusted speeds/lines etc to compensate for the reduced grip.

So why didn't you realise how bad the tyres were prior to ending up in a situation where you ended up with a loss of traction?

In this case you were able to correct the skid, and also adjust your driving to suit the tyres - but if you hadn't been able to correct the skid and had ploughed into a bus stop full of people, this may not have been an option. What could you have done to become aware of your tyres limitations and adjust your driving style before said hypothetical fatal accident, rather than after?

Rob.

Too hard for the POS tyres that were on the car! Not too hard in general. In the exact same circumstances on decent tyres the car behaved as I told it to. Until the tyres got changed to good ones, I adjusted my driving to compensate for this.

My car control was fine with decent tyres, thankyouverymuch.

I find your attitude to be very similar to a lot of driving instructors I've talked to. Self-righteous, and pig-headed.

Tyres can and do make the difference in how the car handles, and to think otherwise (like Mr Holier-Than-Thou driving instructor above) is completely brainless.

You are blaming the tyres for your poor decision making process. I have done precisely the same thing, lost control on a bend in the wet with crap tyres. Only difference is I admit it was my fault, whilst you persist with the idea that you did nothing wrong at all. "It's not my fault, its the car."

This is what I mean about diesel on the road, if you push a car into a bend on the assumption that it will grip rather than enter it at a safe speed anticipating things may not go to plan you stand a better chance of correcting it if things do go wrong.

Most people think advanced driving is about going fast around corners, they are so wrong, advanced driving is about anticipation and forward planning to reduce risk whilst driving.

I may come across as holier than thou but I have to convince my clients that they are fully responsible for their actions on the road, that the decisions they make even before they get out of bed in the morning can make the difference between life and death.

Every incident on the road can be traced back to a human decision. It is usually a chain reaction and you need to break the chain to avoid the incident.

I'm not perfect, in fact I would say I am a crap driver, I have passed advanced driving tests. But I still make poor decisions which result in situations I would rather not been in. The only difference between myself and the average driver is I identify the mistake and think about why it happened so as to avoid doing the same again in the future.

The most dangerous thing you can do as a driver is assume it will be fine as you got away with it last time.

@DrivingMeBananas - No, once again you are misinterpreting what I have said.

Rob has figured it out, why can't you?

I had only had the car a few days so didn't have chance to explore the limits of grip. And how do you find where the limit is unless you get close/go over?

After finding the (low) limit of grip, I drove slower and more cautiously untill I was able to get a known tyre to myself on the front to improve things. All the cars I've owned have had decent tyres on them, this was the first that had "ditch-finders", so I think I did well in controlling it, but perhaps should have eased into the limit more.

I learned from the mistake.

The actual incident wasn't that fast, it was just the way that the tyres broke away that caused the issue. On better tyres the car had better lateral grip and better feel so I was able to better judge the limit of traction. It was on a wide 40mph road, wide roundabouts with good visibility all round, so I slowed for the roundabout, but it evidently was not enough. Of course, like most people, my driving is more cautious with pedestrians around, such as in city centres etc. so in that hypothetical situation, the tyres wouldn't have made any difference as I would - naturally - be going slower and with more caution.

Ultimately the driver is responsible for what their car does on the road. However, it's not quite as black and white, because things can and do happen that are beyond the driver's knowledge and/or skill. These things can be foreign objects in the road (including diesel), poorly-made parts (as has been described previously in this thread) and poor tyres.

Luckily I was able to regain control of my car, and resolve the problem that caused the car to step out at the front due to me driving a bit briskly. The above mentioned person was also able to rectify his car before it got very nasty. But we cannot possibly be held responsible for such things as a diesel spill. Ice is another matter, and you should be going a lot slower generally as there will be other signs that there is ice about (normally the most obvious one is that it's cold outside )

Should we (including myself) be pushing a car to the limit of grip on the public highway?

None of my learner drivers are ever allowed to get anywhere near the limit of grip even driving the vRS and they are driving to a very high advanced standard when they go for their driving test. They can push the car hard down country roads and negotiate bends safely without any risk of skidding.

You cannot anticipate precisely when a car is going to lose grip, there are far too many variables in play. If you drive the car on a knife edge at the limit of grip it is only a matter of time before you come unstuck.

The problem as I see it is we (including myself) want to drive like we are at a track day or doing a rally, but its not really appropriate at any time on a public road.

Should we (including myself) push the envelope on the public roads?

My lesson was expensive and even with "good" tyres I won't push any car into a bend the way I did when I came unstuck. The problem was not the tyres but my attitude and my percieved skill level. I had been round the same corner much faster on numerous occasions. I could probably do it again but faster.

The limit of grip was vastly higher on the Avon tyres than it was on the Federal tyres.

On the Avon I was not pushing it at all, whereas on the Federal I was quickly over their limit.

That's what I'm trying to say! The difference between the point of break away was massive.

I drive a fast car, but on the public roads I'm never giving it more than 6 or 7/10ths. Mostly due to my own limits, rather than the car's. I want to learn to drive faster and better, but the roads are not the place for it. Next year I'm going to try and get to some track days to push myself and my car closer towards the limit. I've even considered some training (and not IAM, I hasten to add!) in car control to improve myself. But this is expensive! So at a track I can at least do it myself with minimal risk.

Believe me, when I go to my destination that day I was very shaken by the whole thing. I'd never before experienced bad tyres.

Cheap tyres are just as bad as having worn out tyres!

I had only had the car a few days so didn't have chance to explore the limits of grip. And how do you find where the limit is unless you get close/go over?

If you'd been driving a hire car, what then? You're saying you can't drive safely in an unfamiliar car?

Going back to the OP's initial post ... what could you have done differently? What I do when driving a different car is start by being cautious and over a period of time gradually build up my confidence in how the car feels and handles. It's feeling what is happening that's most important.

It doesn't particularly matter whether the car has poor quality tyres, or the tread is low, instead what matters is driving to the conditions and in this case, driving to the level of grip that's available.

It's fairly easy to explore the limit of grip - the main thing is not to do it all at once! Start by learning braking grip - do a brake test at a lowish speed, (30-40 mph), then one at a higher speed. In both cases you need to brake firmly but not as much as if you were doing an emergency stop. But doing a 'practice' emergency stop is also a good thing to do.

Then there's the grip when accelerating - if the engine has sufficient torque and depending on the conditions then you might overcome the level grip that they tyres can provide. Finally there's leaning in corners but unless you're a very experienced driver it's probably best not to lean too much while braking since you're asking the tyres to do two things at once.

The key is to build up your knowledge in a systematic fashion. Always try to consider (feel) the characteristics of the car you're driving - don't try to drive it the same as the car you drive every day, since it's not the same. Don't make assumptions about how it will handle.

Going back to your roundabout experience ...

I backed off, the back end kicked out

I'm not convinced it happened as you described given the way suspensions work and the way tyres grip, except possibly if the car had huge huge engine braking. What's much more likely is that having gone into the roundabout too quickly, you braked to get the front end to bite causing the rear end to go light. What most drivers don't realise is that as the grip at the front is increased the grip at the back decreases by a disproportionately large amount.

Having had the experience of entering a roundabout too quickly, having to be too firm on the brakes because there's not enough room to run wide, do you think you could have driven differently to avoid the problem?

Going back to your roundabout experience ...

I'm not convinced it happened as you described given the way suspensions work and the way tyres grip, except possibly if the car had huge huge engine braking. What's much more likely is that having gone into the roundabout too quickly, you braked to get the front end to bite causing the rear end to go light. What most drivers don't realise is that as the grip at the front is increased the grip at the back decreases by a disproportionately large amount.

Having had the experience of entering a roundabout too quickly, having to be too firm on the brakes because there's not enough room to run wide, do you think you could have driven differently to avoid the problem?

There are a number of fwd cars that suffer from this.

It's particularly a problem in the ones where you get into an "attitude" then realise you're running out of road/talent (car or driver) and back off with too much lock on for the actual acuity of the corner.

The chances of a wheel falling off or the brakes or steering failing without any warning when driving normally are virtually nil.

Brake failure in fully-maintained systems comes in at about 252 in 1M hours, or 1 in ~4k hours. That's probably around 80k miles - I bet there are a few cars with more than 80k on them (mine, for starters...) Statistically, I'm on borrowed time!

FWIW, having been given the opportunity to exceed the limit in my car under controlled conditions, I definitely believe it's been the biggest contributor to me becoming a safer driver because as a human being you CAN'T perform perfectly 100% of the time. You'll struggle to do better than 1 mistake in 10000 tasks, no matter how well trained you are, so let's say one 'lapse' in every single driver's career at best. How you recover is definitely key - I whole-hearted support our Scandinavian cousins who have skidpan training as a pre-requisite for a driving test!

If you'd been driving a hire car, what then? You're saying you can't drive safely in an unfamiliar car?

Going back to your roundabout experience ...

I'm not convinced it happened as you described given the way suspensions work and the way tyres grip, except possibly if the car had huge huge engine braking. What's much more likely is that having gone into the roundabout too quickly, you braked to get the front end to bite causing the rear end to go light. What most drivers don't realise is that as the grip at the front is increased the grip at the back decreases by a disproportionately large amount.

Having had the experience of entering a roundabout too quickly, having to be too firm on the brakes because there's not enough room to run wide, do you think you could have driven differently to avoid the problem?

Perhaps I'm not being quite clear enough... The front end stepped out at quite a low speed! The roundabout is slightly off-camber, and as such my approach has always been quite cautious to it. Like I said, it was a 40 limit, normally in the dry I'd be looking about 30mph. Slowed down to about 20mph in the damp conditions of that day and the front end just washed out!

The back end came out slightly as it came down into the camber, and the front end regained grip, causing the back end to carry on rotating. Luckily I hung on to it with a dab of opposite lock (the first and only time I've ever had to do it away from the constrains of my living room!), and was able to regain control and exit the roundabout.

The original tyres felt fine under braking and acceleration, it was the lateral grip that they lacked.

I have learnt to be more cautious in general now, and am especially so in the damp/rain.

Just noticed this ...

After finding the (low) limit of grip, I drove slower and more cautiously untill I was able to get a known tyre to myself on the front to improve things.

From what you described the problem was driver induced lack of grip at the rear - did you replace all four tyres or just the front pair?

Are or were you aware of the standard advice to fit the grippiest tyres on the rear axle?

Edited to add: Just seen your last post about lack of initial front end grip. Still, the point about fitting the best tyres to the rear is very important for overall safety, especially in damp and other slippery conditions.

Edited 9 November, 200916 yr by AnotherGareth
Fixing up grammar :-(

I did hit an initial scary moment with the cruddy tyres on my octy very shortly after picking it up when I found that they offered no wet weather grip whatsoever. I drove into an area where it had rained previously (although we'd managed to miss it) and slowed to allow for the conditions. On one particular corner I turned in as usual whilst feeling out the grip - I was still getting used to it - and discovered that halfway around the tyres suffered an immediate loss of grip and sidestepped by a foot or so. I was able to ease the power off a bit to get the grip back with little drama, but I suspect it's similar to Bab's experience.

At that point I wasn't aware that those tyres has such appalling wet weather performance because I hadn't experienced it. The only way to find out without the slightest incident would have been to take the first corner at walking pace, the second at 5mph more than that and so on, which would have irritated everyone behind me. I set a level that I felt was appropriate for the car and the conditions, and quickly discovered that an unexpected characteristic of the tyres meant that it wasn't. Since then I've driven with that in mind and it's been fine, if a little frustrating at times, but on that one occasion I'm not sure how I could have better prepared for that eventuality. As it happens I dealt with it and learned from it, which I think is the reasonable thing to do, but I'm not marking myself down for having the experience.

Just noticed this ...

From what you described the problem was driver induced lack of grip at the rear - did you replace all four tyres or just the front pair?

Are or were you aware of the standard advice to fit the grippiest tyres on the rear axle?

Edited to add: Just seen your last post about lack of initial front end grip. Still, the point about fitting the best tyres to the rear is very important for overall safety, especially in damp and other slippery conditions.

Replaced the worn rear tyres with the Federals and put the Avon's on the front. As I've always done.

Edited 9 November, 200916 yr by Babs

or would you think about what you could have done differently (ie. to try and avoid the accident, irrespective of the capabilities of the car or the behaviour of other road users)?

Oh, and that's a rhetorical question intended to stimulate introspective contemplation, I don't actually care about seeing an answer.

Rob.

I'll give you an answer anyway: if an accident occurs, it is always best to learn from it, irrespective of blame.

Every incident on the road can be traced back to a human decision. It is usually a chain reaction and you need to break the chain to avoid the incident.

Indeed, but not always possible

That's what I'm trying to say! The difference between the point of break away was massive.

Cheap tyres are just as bad as having worn out tyres!

Indeed, and worn out cheap tyres are a nightmare. It's true of course that some combinations of car, road, and tyre can have a very unforgiving break-away that makes it hard for the driver.

Are or were you aware of the standard advice to fit the grippiest tyres on the rear axle?

I've heard this advice a lot and still don't go for it. For a start, some manufacturers say that you should fit new tyres at the back to minimise risk of blow out, as a rear tyre blowing is harder to control (this was the reason given to me last time), and others say it's to give the most grip at the lighter end of the car (which lifts under braking).

Personally, I like the front to go where I point it. I haven't had lift-off/braking oversteer for years (because I don't hoon it into corners too fast), but understeer due to the front washing out is very common.

"Standard advice" is to pull away in a high gear in ice/snow, with the comedy result of many people burning out their clutches, slipping them to death because they don't understand that the gear is actually irrelevant: it's all about controlling the car properly.

Personally, I think it's better people are educated and make their own informed decision.

understeer due to the front washing out is very common

Lack of front end grip can be overcome by not being a numpty, Lack of rear end grip is beyond the capabilities of most drivers.

Edited 9 November, 200916 yr by AnotherGareth
forum software doesn't like the word '******'

Lack of front end grip can be overcome by not being a numpty, Lack of rear end grip is beyond the capabilities of most drivers.

Contrarywise; loss of front end grip can eventually be corrected by doing the numpty thing, lifting off and increasing steering lock. Loss of rear end grip is well within the cpabilities of most drivers as long as they're taught how!

lifting off and increasing steering lock.

If your tyres lose grip laterally mid turn, wouldn't increasing the lock just make that worse?

If your tyres lose grip laterally mid turn, wouldn't increasing the lock just make that worse?

Where did I suggest that was a sensible thing to do?

You didn't, but you suggested it was a typical numpty solution (ie only vaguely effective) to the problem. I was just wondering it it would actually work at all other than waiting for the speed to decrease enough for the tyres to grip again.