An interesting thread on another site so I thought I'd stir up some trouble with it here

--8<----

I often hear people say, “It just happened, ” or, “the car just let go”, or “I have no idea what happened”. Conversely, do we blame the car when it looks after us or pat ourselves on the back for our purchasing wisdom? Electronic Stability Programs are wonderfully invisible and reassuringly effective at taming the wayward driver. What happens when it’s no longer functioning, fitted or fiddled with?

Are we becoming part of a nanny culture where we are no longer allowed to know how to drive properly?

There are cars I hear about more than others too…

Do we blame the car?

Surely there will be situations where stuff does 'just happen' - you can't tell me that even as a quite well respected advanced driver on this site that there would never be a situation that would catch you out?

Tyres fail, suspension fails, diesel is (occasionally,not as often as yo'd be led to believe ) spilt, road surfaces deform..

Not being allowed to know how to drive properly - you know most cars have an ESP off switch, right? ABS is a different matter though...

I know of a race circuit that when the first mk1 TT came out they bought a load as circuit cars...

Within months a lot had received panel damage etc because instructors were getting the car sideways, applying opposite lock and then the ESP was throwing them off because the system thought they were trying to turn in the opposite direction...

It's a fight between technology and driver.

Give me a car any day that has no driver assists... Even ABS and Servo brakes...

Once you get used to a car without servo brakes you can modulate the brake pedal so much better than with servo.

Kev

I agree with these two... you can be driving a car within your limit and things can and will happen.

Surely there will be situations where stuff does 'just happen' - you can't tell me that even as a quite well respected advanced driver on this site that there would never be a situation that would catch you out?

Of course there are - but it'll most likely be a failing in my ability rather than the car's

Btw, my post was paraphrased from someone elses post - the OP is a far greater driver than I

Chris

So taking a corner you know well, in a car you know well, at a speed you know is safe and you're telling me that if there was a patch of diesel (to use it as an example) and you crash that's the driver's fault?

:rotz:

So taking a corner you know well, in a car you know well, at a speed you know is safe and you're telling me that if there was a patch of diesel (to use it as an example) and you crash that's the driver's fault?

:rotz:

The car only goes where you put it at the speed and attitude you put it. It provides feedback on the amount of grip that's available. It offers you the chance to change the degree of inputs at all times. In your example you mention "knowing well" which is a passive thing rather than active.

I'm not sure it can be the car's fault or the driving gods of this world wouldn't be able to cope with it (and they do)? :confused:

Chris

Totally agree with you there Chris.

Quite honestly I think it is unreasonable to expect all drivers on the road to be 'driving gods' - so long as they drive sensibly and responsibly (as most people in this section probably do anyway) then I don't think it is a fault of theirs if something completely unexpected happens. Unfortunately we're not all as talented as Sebastian Loeb

Problem is with that, is that your passing on your limitations to an inanimate object. The saying "bad workman blames his tools" can also ring true for a "bad driver blames his car"

We don't have to be driving gods to admit that what ever happens in an accident/manouver is our selves reaching our driving ability... rather than the vehicle.

This kinda goes back to some people's inablilty to accept and be responsible for their own actions.

Edited 28 October, 200916 yr by auroan

I don't think it is a fault of theirs if something completely unexpected happens. Unfortunately we're not all as talented as Sebastian Loeb

Do you think the problem is that it is completely unexpected, or that it is completely unexpected and they don't know how to deal with it?

How about a more every day scenario ... a driver goes into a corner a bit hot, panics, brakes, steers too much (opposite lock heaven), ESP steps in and he comes out the other side unscathed. Same driver feeling braver then switches off ESP and again goes a bit hot into a corner, panics, brakes, steers too much but he's on his own now and as a result loses control and crashes. After the car's repaired, the driver takes a day's training in limit handling but still mis-judges the corner. This time he recgonises the situation and doesn't panic, smoothly steers where he wants the car to go and smoothly applies some power to keep the car stable.

Is talent a factor or should we be looking at recognising our limitations and taking responsibility for removing them?

Chris

Travelling at 60mph on a straight, open road with plenty of visibility and no hazards, a tyre on the car fails and as a result you are pulled to the left and end up on the verge.

Yes, the driver has too little talent to control the situation but the driver doesnt have to "be responsible for their own actions" because it wasn't any action of theirs that caused the situation.

None of us are trained to deal with a high-speed tyre failure (either rightly or wrongly..) so is it the fault of the driver if the above happens? I don't think so.

If the accident had happened because the person drove through a pot hole because they were travelling too fast to read the road surface, then yes, the driver would be to blame rather than the car. But a spontaneous failure? Never.

How about a more every day scenario ... a driver goes into a corner a bit hot, panics, brakes, steers too much (opposite lock heaven), ESP steps in and he comes out the other side unscathed. Same driver feeling braver then switches off ESP and again goes a bit hot into a corner, panics, brakes, steers too much but he's on his own now and as a result loses control and crashes. After the car's repaired, the driver takes a day's training in limit handling but still mis-judges the corner. This time he recgonises the situation and doesn't panic, smoothly steers where he wants the car to go and smoothly applies some power to keep the car stable.

That's not the kind of unexpected situation I am talking about, that would be entirely the drivers' fault and the driver would be to blame completely

And with regards to ESP being a good/bad thing - if it prevented the accident in the first place surely it's only a good thing? By turning it off after having entered a corner too fast and panicked the driver can only be described as a moron anyway.

Yes, the driver has too little talent to control the situation but the driver doesnt have to "be responsible for their own actions" because it wasn't any action of theirs that caused the situation.

Could poor maintenance lead to a tyre failure? How many tyres let go without any warning? Imho, most of the time there will be something feeling wrong before the "sudden" failure occurs

None of us are trained to deal with a high-speed tyre failure (either rightly or wrongly..) so is it the fault of the driver if the above happens? I don't think so.

Would you feel the same if they'd killed a loved one? Ignorance is no defence, imho and while "accidents happen" it is still down to the driver who is solely in charge of the vehicle....

Chris

That's not the kind of unexpected situation I am talking about, that would be entirely the drivers' fault and the driver would be to blame completely

And with regards to ESP being a good/bad thing - if it prevented the accident in the first place surely it's only a good thing? By turning it off after having entered a corner too fast and panicked the driver can only be described as a moron anyway.

There are lots of people who believe they can out-perform ESP/traction control and equally a lot who have not realised when it has saved them. Combining the two ... well it's an accident waiting to happen

Chris

Here's a question. You're driving an 18 wheel HGV at 40mph through a 40mph limit. You pass a pedestrian at the side of the road. After your cab has passed the pedestrian he throws himself under the wheels of the trailer of your lorry. Are you to blame? Should you be prosecuted?

Yes it's the drivers fault if he runs over something which was impossible to see and he gets a puncture/blow out

A true example, went into a roundabout in the wet a bit too hard on some Federal tyres on the front of my old Audi, I backed off, the back end kicked out, little stab of opposite lock and I get out of the roundabout without any damage to anything (besides my underwear).

Same conditions, same speed on Avon tyres and the car was fine.

How is that my fault and not the car/tyre?

Here's a question. You're driving an 18 wheel HGV at 40mph through a 40mph limit. You pass a pedestrian at the side of the road. After your cab has passed the pedestrian he throws himself under the wheels of the trailer of your lorry. Are you to blame? Should you be prosecuted?

An interesting one - I'll ignore the prosecution bit as the goal is not to have the accident, rather than who goes to prison

So you're driving along and you see a pedestrian walking along the road. So you already have some information. Is 40mph a good speed? Let's see what other information we have available - suppose the pedestrian looks over his shoulder as he hears you coming. Perhaps he's looking to cross the road, so 40mph is not a good speed. Suppose he doesn't look - maybe he doesn't know we're there so 40mph isn't a good speed. Suppose he's walking particularly close to the edge of the pavement - maybe we should be slowing down in case he steps/falls into the road. Suppose he's staggering - maybe he's drunk and therefore unpredictable?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I have to go to a meeting now but you can see how very little ever happens suddenly....

Chris

As I recent starter of a thread of this ilk (no driver aids except ABS fwiw)

I still don't get what you're expecting. From what you're saying, a good driver never gets into a bad situation and in the unlikely event it happens, they react so swiftly as to make the event un-noticeable,

A bad driver will go into a hairy situation and then correct,

A very bad driver won't correct and just crash.

:confused:

So taking a corner you know well, in a car you know well, at a speed you know is safe and you're telling me that if there was a patch of diesel (to use it as an example) and you crash that's the driver's fault?

:rotz:

This is quite a topic with some interesting views.

If you know a car well and things go pear shaped provided you don't panic and have the room you should be able to maintain a degree of control.

Ultimately it is the drivers responsibility but if the driver hasn't been informed of shortcomings say someone borrows my car and I know one of the tyres is dodgy or a leaky brake cylinder and this causes an accident then it would be my fault for not acting sooner.

Although sudden failures can happen, new tyres on a car if you hit something that causes the tyre to burst or something flies off a truck.

the unexpected is not something that can be predicted

It's no use Ed, Chris is always right

Bottom line, cars are machines, machines can and do go wrong. Sometimes this happens while driving. Sometimes this is due to things that people have done to the cars. Regardless, yes... you can blame the car if it was genuinely the car that was at fault and not the driver.

In my above example was I to blame for going too quickly in a corner that my Octavia vRS, my Golf and the same car with decent tyres can handle no problem?

No. I am not.

I thought I'd stir up some trouble with it here

Mission Accomplished!

Babs, as the driver you must adapt to what the car is capable off. So in your examples you've shot your self in the foot, as you are not adapting and controling the limits of the vehicle.

Two hammers... one is a wood hammer for knocking other bits of wood together and one is a metal hammer for nails and such. I use the wood hammer to hit a nail into something and find the nail embeds it's self into the hammer. Is that my fault of the hammers ?