It's not like I've gone through once on decent Avon tyres meant for a car then gone through the 2nd time using a iced ring doughnut on is it?

I've used both "car tyres" they are the same physical item, once just poorly made - not meant for a different purpose.

It's no use Ed, Chris is always right

Unless I'm at fault - then I blame the computer :rofl:

Chris

As I recent starter of a thread of this ilk (no driver aids except ABS fwiw)

I still don't get what you're expecting. From what you're saying, a good driver never gets into a bad situation and in the unlikely event it happens, they react so swiftly as to make the event un-noticeable,

A bad driver will go into a hairy situation and then correct,

A very bad driver won't correct and just crash.

:confused:

Let's lose the judgemental labels () but essentially the ideal scenario is that you never get into trouble and so you don't need to be able to get out of it so this is what we aspire to. However, reality means that's pretty much unobtainable so the best case is where the majority of the time you avoid trouble, and the few times you do get in a pickle, you don't panic and cope with it.

At the other end of the scale you have the worst case scenario where you're guaranteed to get into trouble all the time and crash.

Fortunately for most people car's electronics and luck play a big role in their position on the scale. Should we be content with where we sit on there, or could we always be striving to be better?

Chris

In my above example was I to blame for going too quickly in a corner that my Octavia vRS, my Golf and the same car with decent tyres can handle no problem?

Or turn it around - would another driver have the same problem? Tyres having less grip is a feature of the car and familiarisation is the key. Relying on past knowledge of how a corner was driven is dangerous because there are too many variables and none are the same....

Chris

Ultimately it is the drivers responsibility but if the driver hasn't been informed of shortcomings say someone borrows my car and I know one of the tyres is dodgy or a leaky brake cylinder and this causes an accident then it would be my fault for not acting sooner.

This is an interesting point. Legally, the driver is responsible for ensuring the car is roadworthy and he will be prosecuted if it is not so it's always worth giving a car a once over before driving it. The Police recommend a static and rolling brake test to ensure the brakes are operating effectively before starting your journey

Chris

Blah blah blah blah blah

Em, it's going back a fair while (I was still in primary school, so no later than 1973), but I've been in a car that had a tyre failure for no reason related to the known history of the tyre. If it had picked up a nail or flint on that trip, it wasn't one that was visible to the driver.

So I'd say that it is possible for the car rather than the driver to fail.

Oh and I've made mistakes that I know the car got me out of without any real help on my part; one of my goals here is to reduce the number of those mistakes I make.

In a racing sense I always blame the car, helps keep driver confidance high and force improvments

On the road tho I see it as my job to make sure the car will do more than i need it to so i can be rubbish and get away with it, any time or condition it wont I drive well within a sensible boundry. As such I generaly accept blame with myself for mistakes.

Unexpected failures are always a worry however. Ive been lucky what few failures ive had have been at low speed. A pattern through most of them was modifying. Which does point to me extra responsibilty and awareness is needed when you start messing

J

Blah blah blah blah blah

Not enjoying this forum? Plenty more to choose from ...

Seriously though, Chris gives up a lot of his time to assist people wanting to improve their driving. His is pretty good, but he doesn't sit on his laurels. The reason for all the driving days he attends and organises (a good proportion of which I and other HPC members also attend) is to learn and develop together in a friendly but critical (in a good way) environment. Until you want to learn, you don't. Chris's posts on here are mainly to encourage people to think, and decide for themselves if they feel they, too, have room for improvement.

Keep it shiny side up

Not enjoying this forum? Plenty more to choose from ...

Seriously though, Chris gives up a lot of his time to assist people wanting to improve their driving. His is pretty good, but he doesn't sit on his laurels. The reason for all the driving days he attends and organises (a good proportion of which I and other HPC members also attend) is to learn and develop together in a friendly but critical (in a good way) environment. Until you want to learn, you don't. Chris's posts on here are mainly to encourage people to think, and decide for themselves if they feel they, too, have room for improvement.

Keep it shiny side up

I do want to learn, as do most people. I know my driving could improve, as do most people.

However, posts are made with certain points and in this discussion forum, any comments countering the OPs point are quickly labelled as wrong or incorrect despite any legitimacy they have.

That's my point.

Em, it's going back a fair while (I was still in primary school, so no later than 1973), but I've been in a car that had a tyre failure for no reason related to the known history of the tyre. If it had picked up a nail or flint on that trip, it wasn't one that was visible to the driver.

So I'd say that it is possible for the car rather than the driver to fail.

Oh and I've made mistakes that I know the car got me out of without any real help on my part; one of my goals here is to reduce the number of those mistakes I make.

I'm going to sit firmly on the fence.

There is always the possibility of mechanical failure or a complete 'out of the blue' event- ever seen that clip of a HGV diving through the crash barrier with little warning? Is it reasonable to expect drivers to expect that? I've hit an unexpected diesel patch and had a close call at an island at least once.

On the other hand, relative grip of a car and/or tyres is something I'd expect to have to allow for.

As to the electronics- I don't like ESP and would rather people learnt how to control a car.

I do want to learn, as do most people. I know my driving could improve, as do most people.

However, posts are made with certain points and in this discussion forum, any comments countering the OPs point are quickly labelled as wrong or incorrect despite any legitimacy they have.

The OP's admittedly subtle point was that it is ever so much easier to blame the car rather than ourselves because then we don't have to learn something new.

A true example, went into a roundabout in the wet a bit too hard on some Federal tyres on the front of my old Audi, I backed off, the back end kicked out, little stab of opposite lock and I get out of the roundabout without any damage to anything (besides my underwear).

Same conditions, same speed on Avon tyres and the car was fine.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Babs, but you've admitted that you weren't competent enough to be a safe driver when you had the Audi and it was fitted with Federal tyres.

Of course that sounds harsh, but I wouldn't want you to misunderstand. And that's not to say that we aren't all in the same boat; we are, however much we like to think of ourselves as competent drivers.

It's human nature to put the blame on something external to ourselves - we use words and phrases like "unavoidable" and "couldn't stop" all the time. It's a handy short form for "the circumstances were outside my experience and I didn't know how to respond instinctively", or "I drove too fast for the conditions because I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough".

Trouble is we've come to believe the short hand version rather than the underlying meaning.

Edited 5 November, 200916 yr by AnotherGareth

Who is responsible for the health of the driver?

Who is responsible for the maintenance of the car?

Who is responsible for the surface you are driving the car on?

Who is responsible for the weather?

Who causes skidding?

Answer to all of the above is the DRIVER.

Are you in a fit state to drive?

Have you checked the vehicle properly before driving it, tyres don't just blow out for no reason.

Are you driving at an appropriate speed for the road? Just because you have driven around the same corner faster before doesnt make it appropriate right now.

Are you aware of the prevailing weather conditions, micro climates, air temperature, dew point. Did you scrape ice off the windscreen? Does that mean the ice on the road has gone as well?

Are you pushing the car to its limits? Cars don't just skid! You have to make them skid!

Who is responsible for the health of the driver?

Who is responsible for the maintenance of the car?

Who is responsible for the surface you are driving the car on?

Who is responsible for the weather?

Who causes skidding?

Answer to all of the above is the DRIVER.

Can I take this opportunity to say that you are talking crap?

You start ok with maintenance , though it's not always possible for a driver to know that a car is in good mechanical order. Cars serviced to the manufacturers recommendations can still develop faults that aren't apparent to the driver.

The road surface....? You can choose which roads you drive on , but the surface can change very rapidly and it's not always obvious that this has happened until it's too late. It's the driver's responsibilty to adjust their driving to the road surface but they aren't responsible for the surface itself as you claim.

Weather.....? If that's my responsibilty , why was it raining recently? I didn't pick that.

Skidding.....? A number of factors including the driver are involved here.....

It's not as black and white as you think

DriveMeBananas isn't talking crap... just worded it wrong.

DriveMeBananas isn't talking crap... just worded it wrong.

Worded wrong and a little black and white. Tyres can blow for *seemingly* no reason- say if you pick up debris on the road, or if they are faulty (there was a big class action in the US for just that). Cars can develop faults even if correctly maintained, as Alex says.

DriveMeBananas is right that taking due care and attention to all factors is the drivers responsibility, but not everything can be predicted or allowed for.

Can I take this opportunity to say that you are talking crap?

You start ok with maintenance , though it's not always possible for a driver to know that a car is in good mechanical order. Cars serviced to the manufacturers recommendations can still develop faults that aren't apparent to the driver.

The road surface....? You can choose which roads you drive on , but the surface can change very rapidly and it's not always obvious that this has happened until it's too late. It's the driver's responsibilty to adjust their driving to the road surface but they aren't responsible for the surface itself as you claim.

Weather.....? If that's my responsibilty , why was it raining recently? I didn't pick that.

Skidding.....? A number of factors including the driver are involved here.....

It's not as black and white as you think

The difference between a driver and a person who drives is that a driver takes responsibility for their own actions.

If you carry out a proper check of your vehicle before driving it you can ensure that the vehicle is safe to use on the road. IF you check your tyres to ensure they are correctly inflated, have good tread and have no obvious cuts bulges or things sticking out of them. It is upto the driver to ensure that the vehicle they are driving is fit for use.

If the vehicle doesnt seem right, then don't drive it.

If you jump in a lorry or bus and drive out of the depot in the morning, get pulled over by VOSA and the vehicle has a fault, you the driver gets the fine, points and hassle, not the owner.

The driver is responsible for the way they drive on the road surface, if they are alert to the type of surface they are driving on they should be adjusting their driving to suit. You should be driving in a manner that you can safely stop in the distance you can see to be clear at all times. End of story.

Yes the driver is fully responsible for the weather, as a helicopter pilot I have to check the weather and decide if it is safe to fly, I have to decide if I can complete the flight safely with the predicted weather conditions. As a driver I have the same responsibility, is it safe for me to be making this journey, am I allowing enough time for the journey, am I leaving enough space in front to stop, am I driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions.

Skidding can only occur when the vehicle is being driven by the driver, it has to be being driven for a skid to occur. (Unless the vehicle is hit by something else causing it to move). There are 3 things that can cause a skid:

1. Too much brake

2. Too much power (or speed)

3. Too much steering

If you skid going around a corner one morning in February and hit a tree, you can't blame the ice, it is entirely your own fault. You made the car enter the bend too fast and did not allow for the conditions. You scraped the ice off your windscreen and then sat in your car with the heating on full blast and drove like it was July. Driver 100% at fault.

If you skid on diesel on a roundabout, you must have been going too fast to be able to stop safely and not be paying attention to the road surface.

Bottom line is the Driver is fully responsible for what they do when they are on the road.

If you skid on diesel on a roundabout, you must have been going too fast to be able to stop safely and not be paying attention to the road surface.

I've removed a huge amount of tedious , self-righteous waffle and thought I'd just reply to this one comment instead.

Are you claiming you can always see diesel on the road , or do driving instructors have some magical sixth sense alerts them to it's presence?

If there's a lot of it then smell is a clue , and in the right light and weather conditions it's visible but that's very frequently not the case. I don't dispute the fact that drivers will often make a mistake and then blame circumstances beyond their control but sometimes that actually is the case and **** just happens.

There was a post on here not so long back from someone who had bought replacement suspension components from a reputable supplier and one failed while in use. Fortunately it wasn't at speed but he'd done nothing wrong and it was totally outside his control. What would you have done differently , and would you say he was at fault?

Are you claiming you can always see diesel on the road , or do driving instructors have some magical sixth sense alerts them to it's presence?

Yes I have a magical sixth sense. It is called Anticipation.

What causes diesel to be deposited on a road? Where does it come from and where would you expect to find it?

Are you approaching these places at an appropriate speed so as to be able to deal with it?

There was a post on here not so long back from someone who had bought replacement suspension components from a reputable supplier and one failed while in use. Fortunately it wasn't at speed but he'd done nothing wrong and it was totally outside his control. What would you have done differently , and would you say he was at fault?

Who fitted the component, was it a standard part for the vehicle or was it a modification, was the work checked, were there any indications that the part was failing, was the vehicle being pushed in such a way as to cause failure of the part.

I must have been very lucky because I have driven thousands of vehicles of all sorts and never had a major structural component fail whilst in use. I've had lots of things fall off, but not yet lost a wheel. When ever a part has failed, there has normally been some form of warning, strange sound, vibration, grinding, shuddering etc

self-righteous waffle

Maybe so, but when I do muck up I hold my hands up and admit it was my fault. I pushed a car too hard into a bend in the wet, entirely my fault, didn't blame the rain, didn't blame the bend. Was me at fault. Took a look at why it happened and adapted my driving. I also looked at the type of tyres I was using at the time.

I hit a car with a double decker bus, didn't check my mirror properly when going around a corner, my fault, can't blame the bus or the car.

A true example, went into a roundabout in the wet a bit too hard on some Federal tyres on the front of my old Audi, I backed off, the back end kicked out, little stab of opposite lock and I get out of the roundabout without any damage to anything (besides my underwear).

Same conditions, same speed on Avon tyres and the car was fine.

How is that my fault and not the car/tyre?

You are blaming your poor car control on the make of tyres you had on your car.

You went into a roundabout in the wet a bit too hard!

How can you turn that around to be the tyres fault? If you had been driving at an appropriate speed you would not have lost control in the first place.

I lost the back end on a Micra at 15mph, in clear conditions, on a corner I drove around at least once every other day. Getting out and examining the car and the road afterwards showed a substance on the tarmac (still not sure what it was, but it was slippery) that wasn't obvious unless you were standing above it and looking straight down. Another car slid on it whilst I was walking back to mine.

Two years before that I had a rear shock fail whilst going in a straight line on a smooth road. The lower mounting for the spring collapsed and dumped the rear down by a good 8". The sudden drop pitched the car around a bit, but I managed to control it. The part was an original one, fitted only a few months before, and it became clear that it had a manufacturing fault in the form of a weak spot under the paint.

I'm not quite sure what I could have done to change either of those situations. What I do know is that if either of those cars had any electronics that might have bailed me out with less drama then I would have gladly accepted them - I didn't need them as it happens, but in any other situation I might have.

Who fitted the component, was it a standard part for the vehicle or was it a modification, was the work checked, were there any indications that the part was failing, was the vehicle being pushed in such a way as to cause failure of the part.

It was a standard, but pattern wishbone from a recognised supplier IIRC, and there was a few seconds warning, fortunately, the driver was going slowly.

I must have been very lucky because I have driven thousands of vehicles of all sorts and never had a major structural component fail whilst in use. I've had lots of things fall off, but not yet lost a wheel. When ever a part has failed, there has normally been some form of warning, strange sound, vibration, grinding, shuddering etc

Me too. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The worst thing I've had with little warning is a sudden puncture at 80mph on the motorway. With a nearly-new good quality tyre that was undamaged apart from the puncture, and fine when I drove off. That was 10 years ago, and I drive the same way every day, it has never happened since. My point here (again) is that not everything can be predicted and allowed for. Fortunately I recognised the rapidly deflating tyre, and got to the hard shoulder safely.

What causes diesel to be deposited on a road? Where does it come from and where would you expect to find it?

Does that mean it's impossible for diesel to be spilt where you wouldn't expect to find it? Or hydraulic fluid from a failed system on a truck?

There was a post on here not so long back from someone who had bought replacement suspension components from a reputable supplier and one failed while in use. Fortunately it wasn't at speed but he'd done nothing wrong and it was totally outside his control. What would you have done differently , and would you say he was at fault?

This was my car, me and my father have fitted the replacement front wishbones down to worn bushes.

My father being a engineer for over 30 years, would at least give me some hope that it was done correctly. Im by no means a mechanic, but i've got a good understanding with working of cars.

I have done head rebuilds, timing belts, countless sets of discs and pads aswell as changing callipers and other suspension and engine components.

Now im a material inspector and have knowledge of manufacturing defects, i.e laminations cracks in the steel its self. Different grain structures etc etc.

There was serveral runs of weld meeting up, a start and stop of a weld usually causes a crater crack where you stop. Now welding can induce defects into the parent material, usually by up to an inch either side of the weld. down to the heat effected zone.

Theres so many reasons that could have caused a failure, but seeing rust effectively along the cross section would indicate that i've been driving around with a failing component without knowing.

Paint can hide defects and given in the location as to where it looks as though it had started to fail would have been something that wouldn't have been seen down to the paint colour.

It simply could have been a bad batch of material, as i've come across critical components that have been in service with some really deep and large indications.

I've also come across foreign castings and steel stocks which have been complete garbage in my eyes.

Im not the only person to have a wishbone completely fail, i can remember another thread from a fabia owner who had the wishbone snap across the beefy section and split.

Now coming back to the subject to look at the part i had fail, there was signs of corrosion around the whole joint aswell as internal rusting across the section of plate steel that had sheared effectively.

Luckily for me the whole joint hadn't split. Otherwise i think id have been fighting away from the bushes.

In comparison to the other part of the same age there isn't any corrosion on the part thats still ok.

I was taking a right hand bend, which changes from the level to a incline aswell as turning right. I was doing approximately 30mph when i had a momentary lightness on the steering and a slight grating noise that then went away. I only knew there was something up when i started to use the brakes approaching the junction at the top of the hill and the wheel moved about where it wanted to banging into the broken part still attatched to the car.

Unfortunately the part had only been on the car for around 7-8months at the time of failure.

Im not sure how you can deem that "When ever a part has failed, there has normally been some form of warning, strange sound, vibration, grinding, shuddering etc"

Is a viable way of deeming something is going to fail particulaly if its unexpected by previous tell tale signs.

Diesels arn't the most quiet piece of machinery, and i've got a list of interior parts creaking together at the moment.

Infact when the turbine shaft in the turbo snapped, there wasn't any change in noise just a performance difference as i was overtaking a lorry on the motorway.

A previous car had a headgasket failure (blowing between two cylinders) i had no indication that it was going to fail, it just lost power aswell as making a huge amount of clatter after the failure.

No white smoke or mayo in the expansion bottle or on the oil cap, as it hadn't blown the water and oil jackets.

I've had a grinder go pop after coming back off of my lunch plugging it going to get going and had a huge pop and a flash of light.

Sorry for having to list so many examples i've encountered.

Brakes and steering are the most critical parts of a car, i would rather run the engine with a misfire than neglect the steering and brakes and end up in a bad situation.

Please keep it polite, chaps. This is an interesting discussion, let's stick to the cars and keep the personal comments out of it.

As you were ...

(Personally I believe parts can fail, and you won't always be driving slowly enough to cope with it. Driving includes risk. The driver's job is to minimise that risk by taking due care).

As for the tyres and skidding discussion, i do have to agree that you "adapt to the given road conditions and levels of grip down to tyres "

The kuhmo 712's have left me feeling a little unsettled in wet conditions. And thats taking things easy, its almost as if your driving on snow or ice...you get a feeling that the cars not going to do what you want it to do and have to nurse it through a bend or a situation.

The vredsteins have left me feeling amazed at the levels of grip there is in the wet....but i've still to change the others to vredsteins, so its a case of minimizing the risk of getting into a skid.