No, increasing the angle only lessens the grip

Exactly, and in some situations increasing lock then lifting off will make the front tyres grip, and cause the rears to lose grip.

Exactly, and in some situations increasing lock then lifting off will make the front tyres grip, and cause the rears to lose grip.

Which is essentially what happened to me, the front tyres gripped with lock on and the back end tipped out :thumbdwn:

If you're old enough you'll remember the rule that you can never have radial tyres on the front if you have cross-ply tyres on the back ... and the reason that this is enforced in law is because the relatively poor grip offered by cross-ply tyres.

There are some comments from an ex- accident investigator on the ADUK forum about why you might prefer to have the grippiest tyres fitted to the rear wheels.

If you're old enough you'll remember the rule that you can never have radial tyres on the front if you have cross-ply tyres on the back ... and the reason that this is enforced in law is because the relatively poor grip offered by cross-ply tyres.

There are some comments from an ex- accident investigator on the ADUK forum about why you might prefer to have the grippiest tyres fitted to the rear wheels.

And, because I'm old enough to remember this law, I'm also old enough to have been in a car that had been switched from crossplies to radials, and with no other work being done, gone round a corner 10mph faster!

There are also numerous comments to the contrary, which detail reasons why having the best tyres on the front is best.

But I'm not gonna bother editing BBCode to get each and every word as a different link. Instead just Google.

I've had grippier tyres on the front and the rear of my Fabia, and have made an informed choice that the safest option for my driving style on the roads that I drive is to have the grippiest tyres on the FRONT of the car.

That said, best situation = grippy tyres all round

At last, another sensible contribution to this thread!

The way the vRS gets through tyres, I replace two sets of fronts for every set of rears, so some of the time the rears have the most tread, and the rest of the time the fronts do!

TBH, until you've worn through to the harder base compound, I struggle to see how having, say, 6mm at one end and 4mm at the other will make much of a difference, since the contact patch will be the same, and the same compound will be on the road... :ne_nau:

Now I've got a couple of minutes I can explain why.

Only once - on a wet airfield at over 80mph around a sweeping left handed bend - have I lost the back end of the Fabia, even with a RARB fitted. But on numerous occasions - especially in the wet- the front has started to straight line - normally because I haven't been sensible enough with throttle position, or cautious enough when it comes to avoiding standing water.

Having deep-treaded, grippy tyres on the front prevents the above from happening and makes the car more stable and less likely to aquaplane in normal British driving conditions. Given that you shouldn't be entering corners so fast that letting go will cause the back end to overtake the front, surely this is the best option for day to day driving? (in The Fabia at least as it's an understeery bugger at best )

TBH, until you've worn through to the harder base compound, I struggle to see how having, say, 6mm at one end and 4mm at the other will make much of a difference, since the contact patch will be the same, and the same compound will be on the road... :ne_nau:

In my experience depth of tread helps prevent aquaplaining and maintain grip int he wet, and the depth (or lack of) of the tread does little to affect dry road grip. I'm open to being proved incorrect

For this reason I tend to have "deeper treaded" tyres on the front of the car in winter/wet periods and try to use the more worn tyres in summer periods. I have 12 wheels & tyres for my car so rotation isn't an issue :eek:

Only once - on a wet airfield at over 80mph around a sweeping left handed bend - have I lost the back end of the Fabia, even with a RARB fitted. But on numerous occasions - especially in the wet- the front has started to straight line - normally because I haven't been sensible enough with throttle position, or cautious enough when it comes to avoiding standing water.

Swapping war stories now, but the only time mine's ever switched ends in the dry was when Don Palmer pulled on the handbrake mis-S bend!

Given that you shouldn't be entering corners so fast that letting go will cause the back end to overtake the front, surely this is the best option for day to day driving?

The usual way the back end loses grip to the extent it becomes a problem is when someone enters a corner too quickly then brakes heavily mid-corner. Typically you'd need to be going fairly quick in the dry for this to be an issue although it is quite possible, (I managed it at about 50 mph on a concrete runway), but in wet or slippery conditions this can happen at much lower speeds.

What often happens is that when the back breaks away the car goes into a spin. If the driver is worried about corner entry speed to the extent of having provoked the problem, the last thing they expect is the car starting to spin, which makes correcting especially difficult.

The way the vRS gets through tyres, I replace two sets of fronts for every set of rears, so some of the time the rears have the most tread, and the rest of the time the fronts do!

TBH, until you've worn through to the harder base compound, I struggle to see how having, say, 6mm at one end and 4mm at the other will make much of a difference, since the contact patch will be the same, and the same compound will be on the road... :ne_nau:

i really think the advice as repeated by AnotherGareth is probably more aimed at people who drive on tyres I'd consider marginal at best. If you replace at 3mm rather than the legal limit, any imbalance will be reduced.

Now I've got a couple of minutes I can explain why.

Only once - on a wet airfield at over 80mph around a sweeping left handed bend - have I lost the back end of the Fabia, even with a RARB fitted. But on numerous occasions - especially in the wet- the front has started to straight line - normally because I haven't been sensible enough with throttle position, or cautious enough when it comes to avoiding standing water.

Having deep-treaded, grippy tyres on the front prevents the above from happening and makes the car more stable and less likely to aquaplane in normal British driving conditions. Given that you shouldn't be entering corners so fast that letting go will cause the back end to overtake the front, surely this is the best option for day to day driving? (in The Fabia at least as it's an understeery bugger at best )

As indeed is pretty much any FWD car these days, They're engineered to do so, so numpties don't put them backwards in a ditch.

I have managed to swap ends in a Golf Mk1 and in a Mini, largely through driving like a tit. These days I know how to avoid that, plus I've slowed down, plus I have cars that handle more safely (not neccesarily better), and have good tyres all round.

Lack of front end grip can be overcome by not being a numpty, Lack of rear end grip is beyond the capabilities of most drivers.

Indeed. Usually by not giving it a bootful on a greasy corner, or just entering too fast. I'd disagree that gaining back grip is beyond most drivers- It's not beyond me, and trust me, I'm no driving god by a very long way. Don't snap the throttle hard shut or brake hard when the back is going all light, if you're fool enough to go in too fast, for a start.

The usual way the back end loses grip to the extent it becomes a problem is when someone enters a corner too quickly then brakes heavily mid-corner. Typically you'd need to be going fairly quick in the dry for this to be an issue although it is quite possible, (I managed it at about 50 mph on a concrete runway), but in wet or slippery conditions this can happen at much lower speeds.

What often happens is that when the back breaks away the car goes into a spin. If the driver is worried about corner entry speed to the extent of having provoked the problem, the last thing they expect is the car starting to spin, which makes correcting especially difficult.

Indeed. Otherwise known as 'driving like a tit'. Been there, done that. Lost it once, caught it the second (over 20 years ago now..., now stopped driving like a tit.

Edited 10 November, 200916 yr by cjb

i really think the advice as repeated by AnotherGareth is probably more aimed at people who drive on tyres I'd consider marginal at best. If you replace at 3mm rather than the legal limit, any imbalance will be reduced.

My runway experience was on virtually new Goodyear F1s, (GS-D2), fitted to all four wheels. Pretty salutary! At the end of about half a day of limit handling practice, and after two or three 50 mph spins, there was surface blistering of about an inch and a half of the outside of the tread of each of the tyres, all the way around.

I'm surprised that there's so much comment about FWD as if they behave differently - the same happens RWD and AWD cars.

I'd imagine many of us have greater experience of FWD. Oddly enough I learnt in an RWD car (Escort Mk2), but I've not driven very many. Also, we had the 'front running wide against rear stepping out under power' discussion, and a RWD isn't going to understeer if you floor it at the wrong moment.

I've driven FWD more, but learnt on an Opel Ascona RWD, 2.0l Cortina and RWD Starlet (driving school car).

I learned in a Volvo 240. 90 of the finest Swedish ponies in a thing about the weight of the Moon. Probably no bad thing, TBH...

... but the preferred car of our field service engineers in the early 90's as there was one particular item of equipment that would fit in no other car (a computer about the size of a fridge)

ABS is the only thing i need when it comes to racing on a track and even then its not essential, ive raced old 60's race cars and they are amazing a bit tempramental but reali fun!!

The biggest blow is when you go for your race training and are first taught in a car with driver aids, and when you go to one that hasent you just spin off :p

Thing is folks, I had a big off that happened to me about 5 years ago. And to this day, I swear that my driving on the day wasn't to blame.

I was in Lane 1 of a motorway when my steering failed. I think a loose pipe snagged on part of the steering, but I serviced my car regularly and looked after it up to that point. The tyres were properly inflated and hadn't burst. I was sticking to the speed limit on that day.

I didn't brake harshly, didn't speed. I did try to steer, but it felt jammed and I could only move it a third of a turn or so. I was effectively a passenger as my car spun around on a all three lanes and could only minimally correct the skid.

I came to a stop facing the wrong way in the fast lane, and I owe my life to the fact the girl in the car coming towards me was obeying the (roadworks) 50mph speed limit and slowed down enough to make it a 15-ish mph impact. If it'd been a rep driving a 3-Series at 100mph... Well, I'm pretty sure neither of us would have come off well.

Fortunately no one was hurt and the police decided not to press charges because they saw there was naff all I could have done about it.

(Couldn't object at all about them having a closer look at the car and breathalysing me after I'd pirrouetted across three lanes... They said they couldn't see anything I could have done differently... and that it was very unusual to speak to someone in that situation who was still standing up and unhurt!)

No matter how good you are, critical failures can happen (and you can bet your bottom dollar I'm not buying another French car...).

What did I do well? I didn't speed, I reacted as well as I could, and I minimised what damage took place.

What could I do better for next time? Not drive a French car (!) - now sorted- and make a promise to myself that every car I bought after that would have a decent level of safety/size in case of another unpredictable event. And I could remember that others' good driving probably saved my life, and try to reciprocate in future.

Now I've built up enough NCB again, I've finally gone for something sporty with the vRS, but you can be sure I'm very careful how I play.

Edited 25 February, 201016 yr by thinkblueskies

Thing is folks, I had a big off that happened to me about 5 years ago. And to this day, I swear that my driving on the day wasn't to blame.

I was in Lane 1 of a motorway when my steering failed. I think a loose pipe snagged on part of the steering, but I serviced my car regularly and looked after it up to that point. The tyres were properly inflated and hadn't burst. I was sticking to the speed limit on that day.

Make and model?

Thing is folks, I had a big off that happened to me about 5 years ago. And to this day, I swear that my driving on the day wasn't to blame.

It was. You should have corrected it! Or slowed down!

...is what some on this thread might say. But they're idiots

Glad that you got out of it!

Make and model?

Yeah, should have said that. It was a Mark 1 Renault Megane.

At the time it was 5 years old and well serviced/cared for. Tyres in perfect order, never modded.

In fairness, two friends of mine with Meganes never had problems with theirs at all. Think I got a Friday Afternoon one.

It was. You should have corrected it! Or slowed down!

...is what some on this thread might say. But they're idiots

Glad that you got out of it!

Thanks for the understanding. It's pretty hard to correct when it's the steering itself that failed. And being slow in the first place is why I'm still alive, in my opinion.

(And possibly other people too. Bent metal I can live with. Bent people... I wouldn't want that on my conscience.)

Edited 25 February, 201016 yr by thinkblueskies

Yeah, should have said that. It was a Mark 1 Renault Megane.

At the time it was 5 years old and well serviced/cared for. Tyres in perfect order, never modded.

Can't really comment further then; Just that I know that what you described would be pretty much impossible in a correctly maintained PSA car.