Cold starting issues Octavia vRS PD

[knealeedis]

I have noticed recently that my Octavia vRS Diesel PD seems to be struggling to start in the mornings.

The problem has only really started over the last couple of weeks since the cold weather arrived, but this also co-incides with its 40k service which was carried out at a similer tile to the problems starting.

The engine has so far never failed to start, but on a number of occasions has failed to start first time as it has done for the last year of ownership.

When starting the engine, I wait for the glowplug light to go out and then turn the key, the engine sounds like its started and when I release the key it then dies, The way to get it to start is to contine holding the key and keep the started motor going for probably an extra second or so for it to start and when it does start it just sounds like its struggling (bit like old lorry engine where you have to leave turning over for a good time before it fires into life)

Are there any suggestions as it just doesnt seem right. I appriciate starting is more difficult in such cold waeather but having had a Fabia vRS for a number of years prior to this I did not suffer from this problem. My other reason for concern is that I am travelin up to Aviemore in Scotland for new year, and its likely to be significantly colder up there so I dont want ot have any problems.

My initial thoughts are possible battery struggling (2 and a half year old car)

Or possible fuel problem (fuel filter was changed few weeks ago as part of the service)

[Jabbasport]

Lift pump?

Have you had a diagnostic check?

Kev

[Nick P]

Does it sound like it's running on 3 cylinders for a couple of seconds after it starts, clearing and running normally when you blip the accelerator?

[yoda01]

I think you have a fuel problem

It is possible that when you had a fuel filter changed a poor seal was achieved at the filter housing allowing air to get into the system over night

When you start car in the morning it has to bleed its self before if fires up

Check O ring at filter housing

[knealeedis]

I think you have a fuel problem

It is possible that when you had a fuel filter changed a poor seal was achieved at the filter housing allowing air to get into the system over night

When you start car in the morning it has to bleed its self before if fires up

Check O ring at filter housing

Fuel was one of my thoughts and the suggestion that it could be something related to time aswell makes sense. I was hoping we may get a little warmer at some point so I can see if its an issue with ambient temperature or if thats just a coincident/

Can anyone point me in the direction of wherabouts the fuel filter is located so I can have a visual look. If the problem persists then I'll probably drop it back to the garage who did the service for them to have a look at.

I'v not had any diagnostic checks done since the problem other than the checks which were done during the service and didnt reveal any problems

It doesnt sound like its only fireing on 3 Cylinders when It first starts, because if it was I would have still expected it to run, but a little irattically. My problem is that on starting it just seems to fail to start.

[paul380]

Your not alone!!!

My 56 plate vRS PD does exactly the same thing. The symtoms you describe are exactly what I have. Car has 31k on the clock and was last serviced at 18k.

Gonna put some fuel additive cleaner stuff through the car as it has been suggested to me that I may have partially blocked injector?

Any advice appreciated.

[dstev2000]

If you look at the two blue plastic caps on the left (coolant header tank and washer fluid) you'll see a silver circular metallic object below them with 4 black hoses coming off, that is the fuel filter.

Carefully pull the engine cover off and there are some silver pipes and black hoses that run left to right over the block, the two that come off the fuel filter supply diesel to and from the tandem pump that is bolted onto the right of the block, the other pipe is for coolant IIRC. Check all of the joints you can for signs of diesel leakage. Also check around the filter housing for fuel as well although there may be some residual from any filter change, if so clean it all thoroughly and check again later.

This pic looks like a PD140 but the components are all in the same place.

[knealeedis]

If you look at the two blue plastic caps on the left (coolant header tank and washer fluid) you'll see a silver circular metallic object below them with 4 black hoses coming off, that is the fuel filter.

Carefully pull the engine cover off and there are some silver pipes and black hoses that run left to right over the block, the two that come off the fuel filter supply diesel to and from the tandem pump that is bolted onto the right of the block, the other pipe is for coolant IIRC. Check all of the joints you can for signs of diesel leakage. Also check around the filter housing for fuel as well although there may be some residual from any filter change, if so clean it all thoroughly and check again later.

This pic looks like a PD140 but the components are all in the same place.

Thnks I will try and have a look sometime in Daylight and report back

[knealeedis]

Thnks I will try and have a look sometime in Daylight and report back

Tried the glow plug trick this morning, gave it 4 heat up cycles and no difference in starting, and it seemed even worse at starting this morning, I had to hold it on the starter for what seemed like ages until it fired into life. Once started it ran and drove fine.

I'b beginig to susspect it could be the battery on the way out, what are your thoughts? the car is 2 and a half years old. and also are batteries still covered by warenty?

I'm going to try and get the afternoon off work and drop it into local garage as I'm concerned that time is running out for me to get it sorted if there is a problem, and heading upto remote scotland on Bank holiday Monday.

[yoda01]

I would expect a battery to last 4-5 years however they can fail sooner.

Should be easy to get it tested with a “high rate discharge tester” most of the motor factors and fast fit places will test your battarey for free.

The battery needs to be fully charged for the test

[dstev2000]

Does the starter motor sound like it is labouring when starting the engine?

Batteries can be a lottery - i've had TDI batteries last years and years but one died on me after about 15 months, luck of the draw!

IIRC the engine has to achieve a certain RPM before the ECU will allow it to fire up, something like 300rpm but please correct me if this is the wrong figure. If the battery is weak it may take longer to achieve this.

I would get the battery checked over first. As has been mentioned before it needs a load or drop test to simulate the demands of a starter motor.

[paul380]

I'm not convinced that its the battery on my car....... Once the car is started I can have the heated screen / wing mirrors / heater / radio ect all on and it will restart fine after only few minutes of running. If it was the battery I think the car would probably struggle to restart or show signs of struggling.

For me its still fuel related. My car is booked into the dealer on the 29th to have this problem looked at.

Thanks for all the advice, I'll report back after the 29th.

[Paul_Sc]

(I posted this in another thread, but looking through the threads, I see that this problem is exactly the same as mine, so I am re-posting here)

This is very interesting. I have had a VRS PD170 for about 18 months now and last Christmas it developed an odd issue of not wanting to start when cold (left over night usually did the trick). Dealer had it 2 or 3 times and could only re-create the problem once. They replaced temp sensors and other stuff, but then the winter warmed up and the problem went away. Now we are back into the winter again it has come back. Turn the key and it (most of the time), will start, but is really lumpy and bumpy and coughs for a few seconds before firing up. If you don't hold the key in the start position for a couple of seconds, it just conks out. Skoda have had it back again and believe it is a fuel problem and so have cleaned and swapped around all the injectors and certainly seem to have done some software upgrades (because various settings, eg the wing mirror movement suddenly changed back to defaults). Sadly though, it is still there. It sat still in a snowy car park for a week over Christmas and I needed to hold the key in start for about 4 or 5 seconds of it coughing before it would go.

Does anyone else have this? I have had a 140 PD engine before this and it didn't do it. I also have a 1.4 3 pot Fabia and after a week in the snow on the drive way it started instantly without the slightest complaint. I have got other Octavia owners to start it to prove it isn't just me doing something dumb and releasing the key too early, but again, no probs.

Any help gratefully received that I can pass on to Skoda. They are being good about it, but I want to get it sorted before the temp warms about and we can't demonstrate the problem at all

PSc

Edit: For reference, I have a video shot this morning starting the car and you can see the Rev counter gets stuck at about 500 revs while the car coughs and splutters for a second. and then suddenly jumps up to about 1000 rev ish as the car actually starts. For those with more technical knowledge than me, does this help in the diagnosis at all?

Edited 29 December, 2009 by Paul_Sc

[mlapicki]

I have exactly the same problem on my 56 plate VRS PD170 on 45k miles. Symptoms as described above - doesn't start on the first go, then fires up on the next go, but runs a little badly for a second or two.

I don't think it's a battery issue, since the starter motor sounds like its turning at the right speed. I haven't done anything about it yet, so I'll be really interested to hear whether Paul380 got anywhere with this.

Similarly, this only started regularly happening after the weather got more damp and cold.

[magic62]

My experience with diesels is, if the engine seems to run on only 3 or 2 cylinders after starting in cold weather it is most likely a glow plus issue. The cylinders that work have the correct temperature, the other ones are too cold and have to gain temperature untill they work.

If however the engine dies after startup (and sounds normal if started and than dies) it is not a glow plug issue but a fuel issue. Than, especially after a fuel filter change, it can be a leak (air leak) in the system so there is air in the fuel lines. Doesnt have to leak diesel fuel, if the leak is small enough to let air in but no fuel out.

[Paul_Sc]

Spoke with Skoda today. Again, this morning it died first time (rev counter didn't get about 500- revs) and then second time coughed into life (temp outside roughly zero to 2 degrees all night). They say they have reports of it happening with this engine but with other vehicles in VAG group. By the end of the phone call though, they said it was a bit of a known fault and there is a technical report on it from Skoda. (though in fairness to them, I don't know if this means a problem with the Octavia specifically, or a known issue with the 170 PD engine).

Anyhow, It is being booked in to have the top block of the engine replaced, which according to Skoda's technical report, should resolve the problem. Is this doesn't work, what next I do have to wonder. Replace the whole engine?? Is that too extreme, or would it be better to do that than continue faffing around trying to fault find?

I kinda got the impression, Skoda UK are leading the technical fault finding on this and my local dealer are following their suggestions.

[dstev2000]

I am assuming top block is the cylinder head, just be VERY thankful it is being done under warranty.

I didn't know PD170s were being affected by dud heads as well as PD140s

2 years of crap starting was cured instantly by a replacement cylinder head on my PD140. If you have a dud head you could be losing compression causing bad starting from cold or losing fuel pressure through the internal channels.

Another coincidence - the problems started just after its 40k major service which is why everyone was convinced it was the fuel system at fault.

The fault finding procedure was via Skoda UK and the factory. The dealer and the techies have to follow their suggestions.

[Paul_Sc]

Indeed it is the cylinder head. Apparently is a couple of days worth of work.

Happy it is under warrantee, but I am keen to get it done while it is cold so it can be tested, otherwise I essentially have to wait another year or so to find out if the problem has been fixed and that starts to come close to the end of the warrantee.

I will re-post when it is done

[paul380]

Got my car back from the dealers yesterday.

They could find nothing wrong but kept it overnight to see what its like on a cold start. The car did struggle as described but again they could not find anything. The fuel filter has been replaced as a precaution but the problem is still there.

I'm more than a little concerned by replacement cylinder heads being mentioned! My local dealer have heard nothing about this.

Do Skoda Uk have a refrence for this repair / investigation?

I'll be very interested to see if this solves the problem. My car is just over 3 years old but covered under Skoda used warranty (hopefully any work required will be covered).

[bestyuk]

Paul380,

Did you have anymore luck with this as i am getting the same issues. I will book mine in anyway as it only has 6 months left on the warranty so anything they can do for free beats me paying for it to be investigated next winter.

Thanks

[paul380]

Paul380,

Did you have anymore luck with this as i am getting the same issues. I will book mine in anyway as it only has 6 months left on the warranty so anything they can do for free beats me paying for it to be investigated next winter.

Thanks

See above post......Dealer found nothing wrong but replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. They admit the car is 'hesitant' on start up but cannot find a reason for it. The car is no different on start up with the new fuel filter. I should really take the car back but due to me using the car daily fo work its a pain in the arse running back and forth to the dealers.

I still have 11 months warranty so I'm waiting to see if the cylinder head replacement mentioned in earlier posts solves the problem.

The story continues........................

[knealeedis]

See above post......Dealer found nothing wrong but replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. They admit the car is 'hesitant' on start up but cannot find a reason for it. The car is no different on start up with the new fuel filter. I should really take the car back but due to me using the car daily fo work its a pain in the arse running back and forth to the dealers.

I still have 11 months warranty so I'm waiting to see if the cylinder head replacement mentioned in earlier posts solves the problem.

The story continues........................

I am also very interested in this mention about Cylinder head replacement as I only have 6 months or warrenty left which if it begins to warm up soon does not leave me very much time at all to get the issue resolved.

My starting seems to be getting worse in the mornings and I'm really having to hold the starter motor to get the car going otherwise it just dies. Once started it seems to run fine and re starts without any problems. These starting issues have all come shortly after its 40k service by my local independant garrage who I am planning to return it to for them to have a look at so any additional info on possible causes would be much appriciated.

If anyone can find reference to the Skoda Technical report giving details of the starting issues and the head replacement then I would be very interested to see this, and may return the car to the dealers for investigation.

[knealeedis]

See above post......Dealer found nothing wrong but replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. They admit the car is 'hesitant' on start up but cannot find a reason for it. The car is no different on start up with the new fuel filter. I should really take the car back but due to me using the car daily fo work its a pain in the arse running back and forth to the dealers.

I still have 11 months warranty so I'm waiting to see if the cylinder head replacement mentioned in earlier posts solves the problem.

The story continues........................

I am also very interested in this mention about Cylinder head replacement as I only have 6 months or warrenty left which if it begins to warm up soon does not leave me very much time at all to get the issue resolved.

My starting seems to be getting worse in the mornings and I'm really having to hold the starter motor to get the car going otherwise it just dies. Once started it seems to run fine and re starts without any problems. These starting issues have all come shortly after its 40k service by my local independant garrage who I am planning to return it to for them to have a look at so any additional info on possible causes would be much appriciated.

If anyone can find reference to the Skoda Technical report giving details of the starting issues and the head replacement then I would be very interested to see this, and may return the car to the dealers for investigation.

[knealeedis]

See above post......Dealer found nothing wrong but replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. They admit the car is 'hesitant' on start up but cannot find a reason for it. The car is no different on start up with the new fuel filter. I should really take the car back but due to me using the car daily fo work its a pain in the arse running back and forth to the dealers.

I still have 11 months warranty so I'm waiting to see if the cylinder head replacement mentioned in earlier posts solves the problem.

The story continues........................

I am also very interested in this mention about Cylinder head replacement as I only have 6 months or warrenty left which if it begins to warm up soon does not leave me very much time at all to get the issue resolved.

My starting seems to be getting worse in the mornings and I'm really having to hold the starter motor to get the car going otherwise it just dies. Once started it seems to run fine and re starts without any problems. These starting issues have all come shortly after its 40k service by my local independant garrage who I am planning to return it to for them to have a look at so any additional info on possible causes would be much appriciated.

If anyone can find reference to the Skoda Technical report giving details of the starting issues and the head replacement then I would be very interested to see this, and may return the car to the dealers for investigation.

[Steve vRS]

Mine does this too.

Always catches on the second try so I'm not too bothered.

Steve