Maybe a slightly obscure question, and certainly one that's a little tricky to explain.

A little while ago, I picked up a 4.5 crown wheel and pinion shaft for my Felicia from Czech. It turns out that I've probably acquired one destined for a six speed box, rather than the otherwise standard five speed box that I've got - it's about 30mm longer than the standard one, so that's all a bit of a dead end.

Now in a hunt for something that might fit, I've done some searching of the VAG parts database, and I'm wondering if I might have found an alternative.

The old Skoda 8v OHV engine from the Felicia was fitted to the later model Fabia in two forms - one a 1.4 and one as a 1.0, though the 1.0 wasn't sold in the UK. I think the 1.0 had a gearbox that was based on the Felicia internals, though in a different case. It shares a lot of part numbers with the Felicia gearbox.

For example, the felicia 4.12 standard CWP is part number 002 311 359F or 003 311 359AG. All the other CWP's for the Felicia box (There are a couple which are longer) have part numbers that only differ in the letter suffixes - e.g. the 3.83 is 002 311 359N, K or E, depending on the model.

The 1.0 Fabia gearbox (code FJQ) has a 4.86 CWP listed as part number 002 311 359AK. Other CWP's for different Fabia gearboxes have completely different part numbers. Other things like the diff case have similar similarities between their part numbers - e.g. only differing in the letter suffix (diff case for the Felicia is 002 409 121B and for the FJQ box it's 002 409 121C)

Bizarrely, Skoda UK are able to provide this FJQ 4.86 CWP but it's the thick end of £200.

So my question is, given that there's obviously some strong family resemblance between the part number involved, how likely is it that the 4.86 CWP will fit the Felicia box? Clearly, I don't want to waste £200 on another white elephant.

Oh, and anyone want a 4.5 CWP for a six speed Felicia box of unknown parentage? ;-)

thanks for any guidance anyone can give

James

Are you using a pre-97 or post-97 box to build it into? Reason being is that they changed - the pre-97 one has the synchro for 5th on the input shaft and taper roller bearings, while the post-97 box has the synchro on the output shaft (where all the other synchros are), and a normal bearing on the outboard end of the shaft; I dont' know how they're shimmed up as I don't have the manual for them, or a box for that matter as I'm in old gearbox land due to the gearkit.

The reason I say this is I would have thought that the Fabia box would be based on the post-97 box and therefore wouldn't work in an older box if you're using one; I wasn't sure if you had a C/R gearkit or not, but if you are then you'd be stuck with whatever box "type" you had, due to this.

Ah, so are you suggesting that the input and output shaft's might be different lengths depending on the age of the box?

Is there a way of telling which box is which from the outside? I've a little collection of boxes now...

It might be then that I can simply get my 4.5 CWP (and my gripper)built into an older box... I'm using standard ratios - not got around to getting a C/R kit yet. (BTW, where did you get yours from in the end?)

cheers

James

hi mate i have answered over on the rally forum too, but can you not still use the 6 speed shaft and machine the end to accept the nuts for 5th?

Ah, so are you suggesting that the input and output shaft's might be different lengths depending on the age of the box?

Yeah, they're different as the synchro-carrying one needs to be longer, plus there's the bearing adjustment issue on the one, I'm not sure of the diameters or whether they could be machined to suit (I'd imagine not, really)

Is there a way of telling which box is which from the outside? I've a little collection of boxes now...

Yeah, the early boxes have a radial pattern on both sides emanating from the driveshaft holes, whereas the later box has a radial bit round the diff holes which leads forwards to the bottom of the box casing, plus the early boxes end cover (where 5th is) has the "lump" towards the front of the car, the later box has the lump towards the back (as you'd expect as the lump is for the synchro). I'll take a pic when I get home.....

It might be then that I can simply get my 4.5 CWP (and my gripper)built into an older box... I'm using standard ratios - not got around to getting a C/R kit yet. (BTW, where did you get yours from in the end?)

You may be able to, if you have the wrong type. My gearkit needed complete remaking, if I'd not had a mate with an engineering works it would have been a total disaster - there were lots of things that needed regrinding and so on (about every part of it, in fact!). Plus the gears look to have been machined by an apprentice, the quality of the finish is very poor.

Well that looks to present some hope then - excellent. If you could take some piccies Darren, that would be really helpful. I'm pretty sure I've got a couple of each type of box, but they're in my lockup in town, so I can't check today.

If it's as easy as using an old box as the basis of my build, that's a lot less risky than trying the Fabia CWP (though it would still be interesting to know if it would fit 4.86:1 would be fab!)

Jim - thanks for the link - the material on the FJQ box is really helpful. You don't know of the existence of an equivelant manual for the Felicia box do you?

Cheers

James

OK, got home early, so took some pics. Obviously one is in the car, the other isn't, so the angles aren't perfect, etc.... anyway

Old style Box (pre-97)

Note the radial lines from the diff bearings

New style box

Note the near-circular strengthening section running round the diff bearings.

Old style end case

Big and flat, with a small rear section towards the back of the car (where the plain 5th gear is).

New style end case

Much curvier, with a clearly-visible circle on it over the (moved) 5th gear synchro. Front section is a lot flatter than on the previous one (as the 5th gear here is a plain one).

Hope that helps, James.

Darren, that's fantastic, really helpful. A quick email exchange with Steph Rowson (Keldsyke) who's rebuilding the box for me suggests I may have sent him a pre-97 box and the CWP for a post-97 box. He's going to take some pictures, and I'll examine the little stock of boxes I've acquired to see if I've one that might be more use.

At least this holds out some hope that I will get the 4.5 CWP to fit.

Cheers

James

No worries, James, glad to semi-return the favour of the rollcage pictures during my build! I had never noticed the different gearboxes until I needed another set of cases after the diff explosion last year, and a spare that I wanted to use was the one you see in the lower picture, so unusable for me!

Oh, and Steph is a legend. Can't speak highly enough of him.

Edited 3 March, 201016 yr by djaychela

did you get the fabia CWP to fit?

Yes, but I used the 4.24 one (on advice) and the lower 3rd, 4th and 5th cog pairs from a Fabia box.

My rally car runs on 14" wheels, but is noticeable lower geared now than on the standard box. I often now use 4th on a stage, whereas almost never did on the old box with the same engine on 13" wheels.

i want to use 15/16" wheels on my afh felicia so i think i will try a 4.8 cwp and see how it goes.