Dear All,

I have just researched this vehicle on the Nissan website and elsewhere.

Who on earth would pay £29,000 (£24,000 with Govt discount) for this car?

How can it become Car of the Year, when it does not do what a car does?

It's a glorified milk float.

Who would buy one unless a complete lunatic or a Member of Parliament (probably the same thing)?

I have written to my MP, strongly suggesting that this money would be better spent on hydrogen fuel cell research or other non-polluting technology.

Be well aware that electric cars are NOT environmentally friendly if power stations are fueled by coal, gas. If nuclear fueled, what happens to the huge increase in nuclear waste that would be generated to power say, 20million electric cars, not to mention the toxic waste from disused batteries?

I would suggest that all Briskoda members email their views (some of you may want electric cars) to their MP's.

There endeth my first rant of 2011.

Have a good one.

Tony :(

Fair point actually. Hydrogen is the way to go. They need to stop mucking about and get the infrastructure in place. BMW has had the tech ready for the last 10 years as have other companies.

Dear All,

I have just researched this vehicle on the Nissan website and elsewhere.

Who on earth would pay £29,000 (£24,000 with Govt discount) for this car?

How can it become Car of the Year, when it does not do what a car does?

It's a glorified milk float.

Who would buy one unless a complete lunatic or a Member of Parliament (probably the same thing)?

I have written to my MP, strongly suggesting that this money would be better spent on hydrogen fuel cell research or other non-polluting technology.

Be well aware that electric cars are NOT environmentally friendly if power stations are fueled by coal, gas. If nuclear fueled, what happens to the huge increase in nuclear waste that would be generated to power say, 20million electric cars, not to mention the toxic waste from disused batteries?

I would suggest that all Briskoda members email their views (some of you may want electric cars) to their MP's.

There endeth my first rant of 2011.

Have a good one.

Tony :(

Thanks, I would write to my MP but my New Years resolution is to chill out more and not get involved and it would be a shame to break it that soon.

Anywayzup it will be of use to someone somewhere,

Right I'm off to relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax. :zzz:

How can it become Car of the Year, when it does not do what a car does?

Well, it actually does... sort of. Actually, I am not that surprised that an electric car has come to be Car of the Year . It's long time since COTY awards have nothing to do with cars and motoring. It's all about... don't know what... politics, whatever you want to call it.

Be well aware that electric cars are NOT environmentally friendly if power stations are fueled by coal, gas...

It is, however, environmentally friendlier than the normal petrol and diesel cars - generating electric power on industrial scale is by far more efficient, cleaner and cheaper than burning fossil fuel in individual pretty inefficient car engines.

As for the battery waste - as far as I know, modern batteries are almost 100% recyclable (even the most common lead-acid ones). If you have in mind the environmental impact from nickel or lithium production, then yes - it needs some improvement.

In overall, I think it was not that bad to award COTY to the Leaf. This would certainly help to promote electric cars which is very, very good thing.

Edited 1 January, 201115 yr by MZPRX

Hydrogen is the way to go.

And where do you suggest we get the hydrogen from? At what price?

And where do you suggest we get the hydrogen from? At what price?

I have been making "brown gas = Hydrogen " for some years now but cannot get above 1.5ltrs/per/min, which is what we need to run. just google on youtube etc. there are lots of plans, working set ups. running examples are around. ............................................

Well, it actually does... sort of. Actually, I am not that surprised that an electric car has come to be Car of the Year . It's long time since COTY awards have nothing to do with cars and motoring. It's all about... don't know what... politics, whatever you want to call it.

It is, however, environmentally friendlier than the normal petrol and diesel cars - generating electric power on industrial scale is by far more efficient, cleaner and cheaper than burning fossil fuel in individual pretty inefficient car engines.

As for the battery waste - as far as I know, modern batteries are almost 100% recyclable (even the most common lead-acid ones). If you have in mind the environmental impact from nickel or lithium production, then yes - it needs some improvement.

In overall, I think it was not that bad to award COTY to the Leaf. This would certainly help to promote electric cars which is very, very good thing.

The leaf certainly IS environmetally friendly. So is WALKING which is exactly what Leaf owners will be doing after 100 miles if they can't find a socket to plug in. What a daft idea and one designed only for the City Gent who can afford to chuck away 25 grand on a second or third car. If ever anyone wanted to know the value of the COTY award I reckon this says it all . This is a car for the HAVES and not the HAVE NOTS and I'm afraid its a trend whereby motoring is only going to be for the wealthier in the future. Rant over!

I really don't see what this is all about. If it's about COTY - then, this is no surprise. COTY award, as it is, is meaningless and pointless (anyone any idea how this thing is awarded? it's utter rubbish). All it does and all it's been used for is promotion of this and that brand, etc. This is what happens now and I think it's god for the car industry in general.

If this is against the electric cars, then this is ridiculous. Nobody is being forced to buy that Leaf (or any other electric car), right? I think it's only good to have a choice, an alternative to the conventional cars on the market (it does good to the conventional car manufacturers and users, too - gives them ideas ) There are plenty of people with daily trips of 3, 5, 20 miles and if they can afford and want an electric car, why not to have one? Actually, for such short trips an electric car is much better than conventional cars. I myself do plenty of such short trips and that's why I use my bicycle. It'll be absolute rubbish to use my diesel Fabia for this. Unfortunately, I cannot afford an electric car, so I'll stick to my bike. But a second electric car would be be ideal for me :S .

Slightly OT, BBC news reported today that fuel is going to be approaching £1.50 per litre sometime soon at a forecourt near you thanks to the price of crude and this lousy government's "regulator" that only means it's a win win for the treasury and a lose lose for us motorists.

this lousy government's "regulator"

If you mean Alistair Darling's fuel escalator, I'll agree with you

If you mean Alistair Darling's fuel escalator, I'll agree with you

No - our glorious leader said to the press "It's simple: when oil prices rise, fuel duty will fall and vice versa. So instead of the unpredictable situation we've got now as we're battered by the global oil markets, with our plan, prices at the pump would be more consistent.

"We can help families by cutting fuel taxes when global prices rise. That's the kind of real, responsible difference to motorists a Conservative government would bring."

No sign of that then. Nor should we expect one either I suppose.

The anti electric car bunch expect perfection straight out of the start gate. As MZPRX puts it "If you don't want an electric car, don't buy one"!

People laughed at Richard Trevithick & called for his 'contraption' to be banned.

Progress consists of trial & error, chances & false starts. Lighten up a bit, it's only a car.

No - our glorious leader said to the press "It's simple: when oil prices rise, fuel duty will fall and vice versa. So instead of the unpredictable situation we've got now as we're battered by the global oil markets, with our plan, prices at the pump would be more consistent.

"We can help families by cutting fuel taxes when global prices rise. That's the kind of real, responsible difference to motorists a Conservative government would bring."

No sign of that then. Nor should we expect one either I suppose.

If you could be a doll and get me a date for that quote, along with a chart showing the oil price at the time as well as the current price trends, I might take your comments a little more seriously.

At the risk of repeating myself, again,

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/184308-fuel-price-stabiliser/page__view__findpost__p__2210350

Edited 1 January, 201115 yr by 'daiking'

Well without wishing to enter the political issue or persuing the COTY issue any further( I agree totally with MZPRX about COTY and it's relation to promoting various brands) I see myself as one of the many who still want answers on how this Electric car idea works. If we are saying this thing is just all about city dwellers with big deep pockets, houses and garages then yes it might just work for them. But how will it work for the average city dweller, you know, that huge majority who live in street houses, flats or high rise, none of whom have a garage and all of who would reasonably want to charge their cars at some point whilst at home. Will they all have a charging point allocated or will they have to fight their neighbours for one and who will stand guard every night to stop vandals coming along and unplugging all these wired up vehicles whilst everyone sleeps??

The other issue is of course cost. 24K is way out of the reach of average Joe Bloggs and as I understand it, the only way this price will come down is when the idea catches on and enough people want to buy the thing. If, and it's a big if, we do see this 'idea' work, what happens to the country dweller, rep, business person delivery men, who have to drive hundreds of miles and will rely on the present conventional car, because once people are largely driving electric, the cost of producing petrol/diesel for cars will surely rocket to compensate?.

Just a simple explaination of how it's all supposed to work would be brilliant.

Hi Daiking...still got the Mazda then? I've been around the block a bit since mine and come full circle back to VAG. Happy new year mate.

Edited 1 January, 201115 yr by horkin

Electric vehicles are just a distraction, in spite of their apparent advantages in real terms, of efficiency. As has been pointed out, where's the power going to come from? We barely have enough now to run our industry and homes, let alone electric vehicles.

Hydrogen, as I understand it...no-one has yet solved the problem of storing 'Hydrogen'. That is one of the main reasons it isn't going to be a 'goer' for at least 20 plus years (government quoted time scale just 3 months ago). Irrespective of how good the current crop of 'show cars' running on hydrogen are...the fact is if you fill it up at huge cost, then two or three days later even if you don't use it, the tank will be empty! Same with the hydrogen fuelling stations. They cannot store it using any conventional means, it disappears into thin air...again!! The technology to store it is at least 15 years away and the cost will prevent it being used, according to the government, for 20 plus years and according to the trade nearer 30 years as the nationwide infrastructure just won't be there and will need billions and billions of pounds investment.

TSI type petrol engines with the turbo's are going to become the norm but it's doubtful if the petrol engine is going to be developed very much more. It's going to be a dead duck due to poor efficiency compared to diesel. The bio petrol is going to be much more expensive to make than dino fuel and already manufacturers are winding down development of the 'new' high compression petrol engines...with some giving up on it since they have been banned in many countries due to the massive amount of pollutants that come out of them. That's still a wait and see...but it doesn't look good.

That's why VAG and many others now have fully commited to the next generation of diesel cars that will run for the forseeable future wholly on bio diesel. Bio diesel will be made on an industrial scale using mostly bugs not crops, so valuable land won't be used to make it. It uses less energy to make bio than dino diesel, and bio reduces further the pollutants and CO2. With 100mpg diesels just about here, it's the only way to go. Take a look at Skoda's Greenline Fabia with the 1.2 3cylinder diesel. It's capable of over 94mpg. Wait until you see the next generation diesels, there is going to be a huge leap forward in the next 5-6 years in diesel technology. Can't wait!

Electric vehicles are just a distraction, in spite of their apparent advantages in real terms, of efficiency. As has been pointed out, where's the power going to come from? We barely have enough now to run our industry and homes, let alone electric vehicles.

Hydrogen, as I understand it...no-one has yet solved the problem of storing 'Hydrogen'. That is one of the main reasons it isn't going to be a 'goer' for at least 20 plus years (government quoted time scale just 3 months ago). Irrespective of how good the current crop of 'show cars' running on hydrogen are...the fact is if you fill it up at huge cost, then two or three days later even if you don't use it, the tank will be empty! Same with the hydrogen fuelling stations. They cannot store it using any conventional means, it disappears into thin air...again!! The technology to store it is at least 15 years away and the cost will prevent it being used, according to the government, for 20 plus years and according to the trade nearer 30 years as the nationwide infrastructure just won't be there and will need billions and billions of pounds investment.

TSI type petrol engines with the turbo's are going to become the norm but it's doubtful if the petrol engine is going to be developed very much more. It's going to be a dead duck due to poor efficiency compared to diesel. The bio petrol is going to be much more expensive to make than dino fuel and already manufacturers are winding down development of the 'new' high compression petrol engines...with some giving up on it since they have been banned in many countries due to the massive amount of pollutants that come out of them. That's still a wait and see...but it doesn't look good.

That's why VAG and many others now have fully commited to the next generation of diesel cars that will run for the forseeable future wholly on bio diesel. Bio diesel will be made on an industrial scale using mostly bugs not crops, so valuable land won't be used to make it. It uses less energy to make bio than dino diesel, and bio reduces further the pollutants and CO2. With 100mpg diesels just about here, it's the only way to go. Take a look at Skoda's Greenline Fabia with the 1.2 3cylinder diesel. It's capable of over 94mpg. Wait until you see the next generation diesels, there is going to be a huge leap forward in the next 5-6 years in diesel technology. Can't wait!

Hi mate, at least your suggestion is credible. Phasing out petrol cars and introducing super efficient Diesels using a man made fuel could, once the fuel production is in place, indeed be the smoothest of transitions and would fit every size and shape of consumer. Trying to make a case for us all running around in electric cars at this stage sounds bonkers. Diesel cars = using exactly the same infrastructure, refineries, filling stations etc., Electric cars = chaos!!! :yes:

As has been pointed out, where's the power going to come from? We barely have enough now to run our industry and homes, let alone electric vehicles.

This is not true. There is actually excess of electric power in the National Grid during the night and during off peak hours (IIRC, it's something like 1000 MW difference between peak and off peak power consumption ). And exactly that excess can be used (and should be used) to charge electric cars.

Bio diesel will be made on an industrial scale using mostly bugs not crops, so valuable land won't be used to make it. It uses less energy to make bio than dino diesel, and bio reduces further the pollutants and CO2.

Let's put it this way - this statement is a way too optimistic. I have work relation with a research lab dealing with biofuel producing algae. It's not that easy to produce diesel from algae on industrial scale as the 'bugs' (using your terminology) do not actually produce fuel. The most promising strains produce ethylene glycols (carbohydrates). Then, these carbohydrates have to be turned into something edible for your super-duper diesel engine. And that's not easy and it's not cheap. Current technology is far from industrial scale. For one thing - it requires a lot of energy. As it is, by the way, production of biodiesel from crops. So, where do you get the necessary electric power to produce your biodiesel?

With 100mpg diesels just about here, it's the only way to go. Take a look at Skoda's Greenline Fabia with the 1.2 3cylinder diesel. It's capable of over 94mpg. Wait until you see the next generation diesels, there is going to be a huge leap forward in the next 5-6 years in diesel technology. Can't wait!

That engine is absolutely gutless compared to my 1.4 TDI which, in turn, is gutless compared to one normal 1.9 TDI (personal opinion). There won't be any leap in the diesel technology in the time frame you indicate. There will be small tweaks here and there and that will be it. You cannot decrease the capacity and increase the boost forever. Every piece of technology has its limits. What would happen to the reliability of these super-engines, what about their price? Even modern diesel engines will be struggling to meet EURO 6 (and some are already struggling even with the current EURO5) standards. What if new emission limits are to be introduced (for instance the total hydrocarbons emission, as a reciprocal measure for the particulate matter limits for direct injected petrol motors in EURO 6) for the diesel engines? This is , actually, one of the reasons why most of the big manufacturers are sticking electric motors here and there in their cars (not even mentioning that piece of joke - stop-start...) - in order to be able to do with smaller (gutless) engines, helped by electric motors for peak output.

Electric cars = chaos!!! :yes:

Where is the chaos? I come back from work / supermarket / outdoor hike.. whatever, park on my drive, plug my car into the socket and go for a supper. In the morning the car is warm, deforested and ready for lift off? And all that for a quid or so..

Electric cars in their current form have a very limited customer base because of their short range between re charge. I couldn't see what the range of the Leaf was on the Nissan website, but there was a nice video titled 'A long relaxing drive on the weekend' It was an animation which showed a long drive of 34km to the shopping mall. 34km a long drive? the sat nav showed the nearest charging points and when in the shops you simply plug the car in and pay with your credit car when you leave.

This all sounds very nice, but it is not the real world.

Nissan also claims zero emmisions, so that means the electricity to charge the cars doesn't come from power generated by coal, gas or oil?

Who would pay £24k for a car to go to the shops and back?

If we all changed to electric cars where would the government get the billions of pounds from that they would lose in revenue from unleaded & diesel?

Where is the chaos? I come back from work / supermarket / outdoor hike.. whatever, park on my drive, plug my car into the socket and go for a supper. In the morning the car is warm, deforested and ready for lift off? And all that for a quid or so..

30% have a drive 70% don't. That's my point. Maybe I'm being generous and the ratio is even lower. No one can answer the question "how does it work for the huge amount of City Dwellers who park on the street. Also to square the circle how can you talk about a diesel not having "guts" and champion the cause of the Electric car? It's a simple question no one seems to have the answer to. Are we seriously saying if you don't have a garage or a drive you can't be a future car owner and to those who want "guts" in a car, buy an electric one?. Each time I think about it it becomes even more bonkers. :no:

Electric cars in their current form have a very limited customer base because of their short range between re charge. I couldn't see what the range of the Leaf was on the Nissan website, but there was a nice video titled 'A long relaxing drive on the weekend' It was an animation which showed a long drive of 34km to the shopping mall. 34km a long drive? the sat nav showed the nearest charging points and when in the shops you simply plug the car in and pay with your credit car when you leave.

This all sounds very nice, but it is not the real world.

Nissan also claims zero emmisions, so that means the electricity to charge the cars doesn't come from power generated by coal, gas or oil?

Who would pay £24k for a car to go to the shops and back?

If we all changed to electric cars where would the government get the billions of pounds from that they would lose in revenue from unleaded & diesel?

At last...someone who thinks like me. I was beginning to think I'd totally lost the plot!!

Dear All,

I have just researched this vehicle on the Nissan website and elsewhere.

Who on earth would pay £29,000 (£24,000 with Govt discount) for this car?

How can it become Car of the Year, when it does not do what a car does?

It's a glorified milk float.

Who would buy one unless a complete lunatic or a Member of Parliament (probably the same thing)?

I have written to my MP, strongly suggesting that this money would be better spent on hydrogen fuel cell research or other non-polluting technology.

Be well aware that electric cars are NOT environmentally friendly if power stations are fueled by coal, gas. If nuclear fueled, what happens to the huge increase in nuclear waste that would be generated to power say, 20million electric cars, not to mention the toxic waste from disused batteries?

I would suggest that all Briskoda members email their views (some of you may want electric cars) to their MP's.

There endeth my first rant of 2011.

Have a good one.

Tony :(

How the hell can they award anything to this pointless over-priced vehicle, they even decided it was car of the year BEFORE this elctric skateboard even hits the streets in any measuable numbers COTY is a complete load of p[oliticised TOSh ( and that was very polite)

What I don't see on the Nissan site is how long you need to charge the leaf to travel what distance and how much it will cost.

When I fill up the octy it will give me almost 600 miles and I know what that will cost. The mpg will vary depending on the type of journey and the style of driving.

I guess this is the same for an electric car, drive it fast, run with headlights and the heater on etc and the range is reduced. As side issue how do they produce the heat for the cabin ?

I know it wasn't a true test, but when Clarkson drove the electric lotus bodied electric car (Tesla?) on top gear it went like stink, but the range was massively reduced due to the speed.

Found the top gear piece:

Apologies for not reading the whole thread but to answer the question of hydrogen vs electric..

Lots of research is being done on hydrogen, currently what is lacking is technology of producing hydrogen in mass production. Unfortunately the tech is about 10-15 years away at least (esp when the whole world seems like its at bankruptcy atm).

As for electric cars.. It is and will be the in big time in the next few years. The stages are at its infancy stages atm in terms of production, however there is so much research has already been done tested to the nth degree and ready to manufacture. The main reason its not going ahead is bcause the gov. is setting stupid regulations for eco friendliness i.e. euro 6 is a joke! Theres more electric vehicle activity in the US and Asia because of our not very thought out and restrictive regulations.

All the manufacturers are doing is shifting responsibilities by decreasing pollution of one area (nox, following euro 6 etc) and shifting it to another area (things does not run as long, need higher maintenance, high costs, more services, more material, thus more pollution).

Oh, to add.. since its the new year and everything.. watch out for 2014-2015.. This should be when 50mpg cars bump right up to 60-80 plus.

Why? I'll give you a clue, its to do with electronics

My prediction is that Europe may not want to fully accept the electric route due to import implications of materials, instead they will use another electronic gismo to get their environmental credentials.

Edited 2 January, 201115 yr by JLneonhug

There's always this

http://www11.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2010-03-02

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10803020