This is a great one for me and exactly the situation that I'm talking about.

If our map is what you call generic, and the other is what you'd call custom, then what's the actual difference in what you're buying?

I don't generally knock other tuning companies (there are certain exceptions) but I absolutely wouldn't knock a fellow Briskoda sponsor as I'd have no grounds to.

However, take the fact that it's a sponsor away for a second and imagine it's AN Other Tuning Co, if our stage 1 software is what you'd call generic, then is that the poor relation to a custom map, regardless of cost? Or could there be benefits in a properly written map even if it does get used more than once? What about if the person writing the custom map has a poor understanding of that ECU type or simply uses software to make the changes for them semi-automatically? Perhaps both of the above?

BTW I absolutely don't want this to be a Shark vs the world thread, I'm genuinely interested in the buying public's view.

Hi Ben,

Tbh I haven't a clue what the difference is. Another question is how do I know that the other map is really custom? All I know as a tuning novice is that both will give roughly 30 bhp extra, and one is £100 more than the other.

I've heard great reports about Shark maps, but I'm struggling to justify the extra cost. If you would like to know who the other tuner is that I'm thinking about, then please pm me, and you can then do a sales pitch!

Also, you are nearer to me than the other tuner, so in some ways I'd rather use Shark!

Martin

Edited 19 February, 201115 yr by 2SkodaFamily

Ok, I see where you're going with that, although that's not entirely possible. Each ECU has different software even if the engine is the same, so across the range of CR170 Octavias I think I've seen at least 7 or so different versions, possibly more.

Your idea of custom matches mine however for a car that doesn't have extensive mods, is there a point in a customer paying for that? Indeed, just because it's "custom" does it make it better than a map that's been written properly in the first place? Are the customisations supposedly to that specific car actually any good?

Would you rather have a properly written "generic" map or a poorly written "custom" map?

do the likes of bluefin etc give different maps for each software version? i just thought all say 2010 octavia cr170 would get the same map from such a device and not changed depending on software already on the car?

that said i dont see a 'generic' map as being a bad one, i just see that its what suits a standard car to be honest. to my understanding a ustom map wouldnt give much of a gain over a generic on on a car thats got no mods. fine if the client wants wide or narrow power bands or different requirements then yes a custom would be better but to the average customer i see no need.

custom however i would want on a car with mods to allow the best power etc to be achieved, but thats where my knowledge ends, im not sure what mods would be needed to make use of a custom effort. i mean fitting an airfilter and exhaust would in some cases make the car perform better on intake of air and obviously more free flowing on an exhaust front. would a custom map make better use of these maps, i would have thought yes, but the additional power from this may not merit it? thats where im not sure and have no experience :no:

interesting question Ben and great read to peoples opinions

oh and a well written map for me anyday regardless of being generic or custom. i had custom map before on my octy but was it truely custom? that i dont no, it wasnt an upload and walk away but an upload the RR then alter map then RR then alter map. did it give better map or gains over an upload and walk away, i have no idea :wonder:

bet ts interesting reading peoples views ben? keep up the good work mate

oh and a well written map for me anyday regardless of being generic or custom.

This is where the whole Generic/Custom I find interesting, custom implies by its nature better but is it really? it’s certainly a good marketing word but given the nature of a map, most seem to agree "well written" is the key.

Is custom possibly at risk of falling into the "jack of all trades" camp? I suspect there are general principles that with the correct tools to access the ECU would be able to be broadly applied to any engine management system that would force improvement but is this necessarily the best way to do it.

this scenario if possible would more accurately fall into "generic" where it sounds like there will be a load of code writing to do to make a map more accurately tailored to a vehicles specific systems that might be more elegant to work with, as opposed to brut forcing code. Would this not fall more accurately into "custom"?

Again, no clue how these folks actually work in practice, but it’s often difficult for a buyer to cut through marketing and truly understand the products being offered.

I have no clue, would love to kmow more though

Id say its not as simple as a generic or custom remap

its more of a 3 stage process

Generic- A remap emailed the end user where he uploads it to his car and the tuner does no data logging omn the actual car its being applied to. So in essence its like what bluefin or yourself with the STS handset offer. Id also say that tuners who literally upload a map and fdont log and adjust wuld be classified as generic.

Generic base map with adjustability. This wouldbe a remap carried out on a dyno/on road with data logging to check the map. Then settings would be adjusted to optimise it to the individual car. This would be yourself remapping in your workshop, or like REVO etc with the adjustable SPS. (this is what lots of tuners call custom maps IMO)

The likes of REVO, APR, GIAC shark etc i would put into this bracket

Custom map A custom map wouldn't have a base map, and would be built up from the bottom (All generic maps start life this way of course, although most tuners buy the base maps in). Pretty pointless on anything other than big turbo conversions or bespoke crazy setups that people run, and most tuners wouldn't be able to do this despite offering alleged custom maps. And take a long time to do, so not your average hours appointment.

Edited 19 February, 201115 yr by janner_Sy

Ive just started a post on the GTI forum to see what they think. Should be interesting as its alot more tuning orientated on there compared to here.

I've just realised that I've made an embarrassing balls-up!!!! The "£100" price difference I'd been mentioning isn't £100 at all. By the time I factor in my 10% Freedom discount the price difference is only £20 - in this context not worth worrying about. For some reason I'd had in my mind that Shark's remap was £399.

Sorry Ben, my apologies!!!! I shall of course be killing myself forthwith!

Make sure you post up the link janner?

Now that's an interesting point, because I've never had a customer in so far with a list (or indeed an idea) of requirements and I'm yet to have anyone say "actually, I don't like that, can you change it?"

So what requirements would you have from your map, for example?

Haha, well, I'd personally like little/no power at low rev's but lots of power at high revs. I like to use my gears for incline, overtake and acceleration. anything between 1.5-2k is merely for cruising at level grounds, if there's a slight incline I drop a gear and I'll quite happily leave it at 2.5k.

The problem is people say 'agressive maps' or 'eco maps' I have no idea which bracket this comes under, thus why I am unsure what is considered a custom map and what is a 'half' generic map.

Ben, having seen Trevors fabia in your site sponsor section, I have to say I am rather impressed with the figures that the standard PD150 turbo gave with just a SMIC. What exactly does your stage 2 mapping involve? It gave a large gain over the generic map that was on there (roughly what I am running at present).

Where did that come from? Have I said something to upset you in the past? No strops from me I assure you!

We have had a disagreement about whether or not interceptor boxes such as Van Aaken and Tunit offer something equivalent to a generic (not optomised to a specific vehicle) map. Also, I was feeling a touch defensive, and knew I was over-simplifying mapping by suggesting that just dumping in more diesel always meant more power.

does anyone else sell the same maps as shark?

No. And if someone says they do, I would love to prove them wrong.

We have had a disagreement about whether or not interceptor boxes such as Van Aaken and Tunit offer something equivalent to a generic (not optomised to a specific vehicle) map. Also, I was feeling a touch defensive, and knew I was over-simplifying mapping by suggesting that just dumping in more diesel always meant more power.

Interceptor boxes have far less authority over engine control than what we get when we directly edit the control parameters, they cannot be compared at all, unless you compare the worst 3 minute parking lot remaps to them.

(I didn't see the original discussion, just wanted to clear that...)

Generic base map with adjustability. This wouldbe a remap carried out on a dyno/on road with data logging to check the map. Then settings would be adjusted to optimise it to the individual car. This would be yourself remapping in your workshop, or like REVO etc with the adjustable SPS. (this is what lots of tuners call custom maps IMO)

The likes of REVO, APR, GIAC shark etc i would put into this bracket

Custom map A custom map wouldn't have a base map, and would be built up from the bottom (All generic maps start life this way of course, although most tuners buy the base maps in). Pretty pointless on anything other than big turbo conversions or bespoke crazy setups that people run, and most tuners wouldn't be able to do this despite offering alleged custom maps. And take a long time to do, so not your average hours appointment.

This is what we offer our customers.

Kev

take 2 after i p osted this in the wrong thread like a tool

@ any of the shark performance guys what would your definitions be of custom, generic or adjustable maps, and where would you position yourselves?

I've had both generic, and custom maps on my fabia.

The way i see it, and probably most other "non technical" people like me is..

Generic remap -

A basic map, designed to compliment a standard spec car. Once that map is written, it can then be used many times over, for other same make/model cars, therefor allowing a cheaper retail price to the customer.

Custom remap -

A map designed from scratch, or at least a base map, altered to suit your vehicle, mods, driving style or whatever, resulting in a slight premium on the retail of the generic.

Also, another reason for the increased cost, and benefit of going custom, as i found out during my custom map (i used Ben/Shark) Whilst mapping we came across a few issues with the car, time was then spent diagnosing and fixing these whilst mapping. (obviously it was nothing serious, but still time consuming none the less).

I'm sure if you went to somewhere for a generic map, there's a high chance you'd have to pay to get your faults/issues resolved separately.

Some may disagree, but thats just my thoughts

Interceptor boxes have far less authority over engine control than what we get when we directly edit the control parameters, they cannot be compared at all, unless you compare the worst 3 minute parking lot remaps to them.

(I didn't see the original discussion, just wanted to clear that...)

I'm a real-time software engineer. I do actually know that there's no technical reason why a properly designed interceptor or piggyback should not be able to trim any EMS output, albeit a couple of clock cycles (say 1 microsecond) behind a remap. If you guys can prove that no-one offering interceptors has actually done this, feel free.

@ any of the shark performance guys what would your definitions be of custom, generic or adjustable maps, and where would you position yourselves?

Well Sy, this is part of the problem.

A lot of time is put in to developing our maps through learning about the ECU, and testing cars on the road and on the dyno. R&D is critical for any company to make sure they're offering a good service.

For stage 1 and 2 applications, we generally use similar or the same mapping as on other cars we've done. It's not as simple as that because of the differences inside the software of each version of ECU but generally if you bring us a 2002 Octavia VRS, you'll leave with the same map as another person with a 2002 Octavia VRS. I would call this generic. We road test every car and if there are imperfections or a problem of some kind, we'd then work to solve that issue through datalogging, and altering code to suit. I would call that custom.

For further applications, a map will be made specifically for that car usually because the sheer number of modifications and the type of those modifications will be so different to any other car. I would also call that custom.

HOWEVER.

It really isn't as straightforward as that. There are so many people out there remapping cars, and there are several ways to boil an egg here.

1. Man with laptop who buys remap files from another man (or indeed lady, we're not sexist here at Shark Performance) and puts it on a car, charges you £200 and away you go. Generic, and probably rubbish.

2. Man with laptop who makes his own maps sat in your car in around 5 minutes, charges you £200 and away you go. Usually you end up with a rubbish map with various values altered by a common percentage across the board. The man doesn't really know how to "tune" but knows more than man 1. Custom, and definitely rubbish.

3. Man with laptop who makes his own maps by loading them into a map editing suite which then picks maps out for said man and allows him to turn them up and down at will. Custom, possibly rubbish but sometimes good with some easy to spot and generally schoolboy errors.

4. Man with laptop who creates maps without the use of map editing suites and often with the original manufacturer's reference documentation and thoroughly tests them via logging, road testing and dyno testing. Custom, probably the best available.

Now of course for each of the men, 1-4 there are going to be good and bad examples of each. Just because you write your own maps and have a dyno does not make you a good tuner. Conversely, the man with the laptop who buys maps from another man might get lucky and buy a good map that's been well written.

Whichever of the above categories a tuner falls into, what really matters is good customer service, good knowledge, good results and most of all good feedback.

So, that's a long winded answer to your question, hope it makes sense.

its interesting to see a tuners idea of a remap.

As you said in the OP, so many people throw around the 'custom' phrase purely to attract customers, yet they aren't customizing anything.

I'm a real-time software engineer. I do actually know that there's no technical reason why a properly designed interceptor or piggyback should not be able to trim any EMS output, albeit a couple of clock cycles (say 1 microsecond) behind a remap. If you guys can prove that no-one offering interceptors has actually done this, feel free.

If you'd like to prove that someone has, I'm all ears.

However, you have pinpointed one of the major problems with tuning boxes. All they can do is alter outputs. They can't measure any of the inputs. They can't check the state of a switch. They can't tell if the DPF is being regenerated...

There's one thing they can do: modify an output. Unfortunately an ECU's job is obviously much more complex than just sending the output signals to the injectors.

its interesting to see a tuners idea of a remap.

As you said in the OP, so many people throw around the 'custom' phrase purely to attract customers, yet they aren't customizing anything.

And if they are, are the customising the right things?

I'm not joking when I say I've seen a map with only NINE altered maps. Nor am I joking when I say I've seen a map where even the limp mode maps have been "tuned".

It's pretty scary to be honest.

If you'd like to prove that someone has, I'm all ears.

However, you have pinpointed one of the major problems with tuning boxes. All they can do is alter outputs. They can't measure any of the inputs. They can't check the state of a switch. They can't tell if the DPF is being regenerated...

There's one thing they can do: modify an output. Unfortunately an ECU's job is obviously much more complex than just sending the output signals to the injectors.

And here is the source of our disagreement; I know what a tuning box can do in principle. You say that they don't do this in practice, in a non-contractual situation, but don't offer any evidence to back this up.

Unless I thought I'd buy the same engined car twice, I'd not pay more for a tuning box than for a generic map, because the box has no advantages other than transferability, but that does not mean that a tuning box can not monitor inputs, before trimming or replacing outputs.

I'm a real-time software engineer. I do actually know that there's no technical reason why a properly designed interceptor or piggyback should not be able to trim any EMS output, albeit a couple of clock cycles (say 1 microsecond) behind a remap. If you guys can prove that no-one offering interceptors has actually done this, feel free.

As a real-time sw engineer, you also understand that an ECU is more than just a simple I/O device. It has tons of internal calculations, and if you (and yes, of course you can) touch the input/output signals, you also affect the internal calculations.

When you start thinkin about it, just imagine how complicated that interceptor would have to be.

Lets say, we want to limit torque at 1st and 2nd gear.

So, your interceptor would have to have vehicle speed signal and rpm signal and it would have to be calibrated for this exact engine/gearbox, or a gear selected signal from automatic transmission.

Then you want to increase idle speed, but only when camshaft control is not active (ie. warm starts etc). So then we need another set of inputs, and another set of calibrated values.

In theory it is possible, yes, but I'm sure you understand it just gets way too complicated way too early. What you're describing is an aftermarket ECU, not a piggyback module. A modern day digital fancy piggyback/interceptor module is made by 2 guys with a soldering iron and big eyeglasses, and the most expensive parts of the whole kit are the connectors.

You said you want proof that no-one does this. Well, I can guarantee you no piggyback has gear based torque limitation and camshaft control dependant mapping, which are everyday stuff when doing an ECU recalibration.

Or even launch control, which we can do on ME7

As a complete tuning numbnut, but having pondered a remap or tuning box, it took me less than an evening googleing to decide that if ever I did it would be a proper remap. My reasoning, and it may have been wron, was that a tuning box would (possibly) be changing the amount of fuel, boost whatever but would be doing this without the ECU knowing it was happening. To my mind there would be too much risk of something going bad because the box let the parts do something the ECU would not want them doing.

Now, Generic and Custom. To my mind a generic remap would be one that written for a standard car using the manufacturers stated values for the baseline and would not involve rolling road adjustment as part of the ECU flash. Custom, to me, would be anything else. If I had a standard car, I do, and the generic map cost £XXX, but for the same cost that could be tweaked for performance, me stamping on the loud pedal regular, or for economy, I drive like a virgin and max the revs at 2.5k and wet myself in fear/excitement at 3k that'd be custom. I'm not saying I think that how it should be was just giving an as if.

I do accept that a good tuner at some point produced what used to be a custom map which is now applied across a particular model so has now become generic......

As a real-time sw engineer, you also understand that an ECU is more than just a simple I/O device. It has tons of internal calculations, and if you (and yes, of course you can) touch the input/output signals, you also affect the internal calculations.

When you start thinkin about it, just imagine how complicated that interceptor would have to be.

Lets say, we want to limit torque at 1st and 2nd gear.

So, your interceptor would have to have vehicle speed signal and rpm signal and it would have to be calibrated for this exact engine/gearbox, or a gear selected signal from automatic transmission.

Then you want to increase idle speed, but only when camshaft control is not active (ie. warm starts etc). So then we need another set of inputs, and another set of calibrated values.

In theory it is possible, yes, but I'm sure you understand it just gets way too complicated way too early. What you're describing is an aftermarket ECU, not a piggyback module. A modern day digital fancy piggyback/interceptor module is made by 2 guys with a soldering iron and big eyeglasses, and the most expensive parts of the whole kit are the connectors.

You said you want proof that no-one does this. Well, I can guarantee you no piggyback has gear based torque limitation and camshaft control dependant mapping, which are everyday stuff when doing an ECU recalibration.

Or even launch control, which we can do on ME7

Ok, there's certainly no interceptor or piggyback for VAG (possibly any Euro) that does some of that.

Reading with interest.

My idea of an interceptor or a piggy-back is pretty much the same as a LPG ECU on something like a Prins or AEB Multi-point set up. All they do is take the output from the OEM ECU and modify it before it gets to the components it is destined for.

Very limited in what you can achieve, and the OEM ECU is still in control, albeit oblivious to the fact that the 'Slave' ECU exists as it will be transparent to it.

As for the 'custom' and 'generic' argument - I think it has been summed up pretty well so far, my understanding is a 'generic' will be a one-size fits all (for that particular engine and ECU revision) without any 'tweaks'.

Custom is at it sounds, it is either a map done from the ground up on a RR for that particular car because it is non-standard.

There is also the tweaked generic - base 'generic' map applied and then some minor tweaks done to improve it - ie focus more on economy than power, map out the EGR or DPF etc.