I will give the money.

On one condition:

I want Vagcom logs of SOI and duration, as I want to work out why mine's making 30bhp less.

So the tennis balls now in Shark's and Jabba's court!!

Also are you 100% certain that your car is exactly the same mechanical spec (engine/ECU and mods to it) as the OP/WH car????

So the tennis balls now in Shark's and Jabba's court!!

Hang on a minute, it's nowt to do with me! I just dyno'd it! :p

So the tennis balls now in Shark's and Jabba's court!!

Also are you 100% certain that your car is exactly the same mechanical spec (engine/ECU and mods to it) as the OP/WH car????

Same injectors, which are limiting my car.

Leave Ben out of it lol.

Unfortunately after careful consideration we have no plans to release any data on our kits concerning SOI, duration etc.

A point to consider also is that the turbocharger, manifold, inter cooler and intake system is completely different to Friggerpants and therefore un-comparable.

Kev

Leave Ben out of it lol.

Unfortunately after careful consideration we have no plans to release any data on our kits concerning SOI, duration etc.

A point to consider also is that the turbocharger, manifold, inter cooler and intake system is completely different to Friggerpants and therefore un-comparable.

Kev

However the fuelling systems are the same, and that's we're my bottleneck is. There is no more fuel to inject. But I'm on the quest for more power, and if you can remap my car to get around the limit, then I'm more than happy to pay.

Do Jabba use water/methonal? Is this used to lower PCP which can result in more advanced SOI, so longer duration from the injectors?

We offer this as an option, but the vehicle doesn't have to use it constantly.

Kev

Leave Ben out of it lol.

Unfortunately after careful consideration we have no plans to release any data on our kits concerning SOI, duration etc.

A point to consider also is that the turbocharger, manifold, inter cooler and intake system is completely different to Friggerpants and therefore un-comparable.

Kev

Sorry!!!!

If there are that many differnces between Friggerpants car and the OP/WH car WTF is Friggerpants wondering why his is producing less bhp...even if he thinks that his bottleneck is just the injectors!.....Fitting a bigger/better intercooler will reduce the temp of the air into the engine, better manifold will improve the airflod/speed, bigger/better turbo will defo produce the most improvment, differnt intake system........the two are uncomparable....so WTF is Friggerpants bleating on about then???? :wonder:

We offer this as an option, but the vehicle doesn't have to use it constantly.

Kev

That rules out using it to increase soi then. Lol

Because the argument has always been "the injectors can't flow enough fuel for more than 230bhp". It's been said on numerous occasions, and explained in techy numbers by Shark (both Mikko and Ben). So discussing turbos, ported heads, better FMICs, intake systems etc isn't solving the problem at hand of the injectors not being able to flow enough fuel. If the injectors are at 100% then you can run a turbo as big as you like and it simply wouldn't help.

For example, even my hybrid VNT17 is rated to 240bhp by Turbo Dynamics, but it will only do that with enough fuel, which it's always been said the standard injectors can't provide. And then here's a Jabba car which suddenly does 30bhp over this theoretical limit, it's no wonder people are trying to work out what's been done with the stock injectors to make it do that. The rest of the engine might have been highly modified, but they say they've done nothing with the actual bottleneck part so theoretically the figure Ben got isn't possible (and he's already explained why)!

Sorry!!!!

If there are that many differnces between Friggerpants car and the OP/WH car WTF is Friggerpants wondering why his is producing less bhp...even if he thinks that his bottleneck is just the injectors!.....Fitting a bigger/better intercooler will reduce the temp of the air into the engine, better manifold will improve the airflod/speed, bigger/better turbo will defo produce the most improvment, differnt intake system........the two are uncomparable....so WTF is Friggerpants bleating on about then???? :wonder:

Think of it another way. The GTB2260 is capable of producing enough air for high 200's. So fingerpants has the air. He just needs the fuel. I'm guessing he believes he has a safe SOI. You can only inject so far past TDC before EGT rise to unsafe levels so that leaves you with a fixed duration.

Million dollar question. How does Jabba get round this or do they know something other tuners don't?

All good fun and interesting.

Fabdavrav raises a valid point, one which many people seem to overlook. We're talking about 2 completely different set-ups here, which in effect offers 2 very different efficiency engines.

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumetric_efficiency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

For example, injecting 70mg/stroke of diesel in one engine with a certain setup isn't guaranteed to create the same power as an engine with a completely different setup. Just because the fuel quantity injected is the same doesn't mean the power will be.

These kind of topics seem to be going around in roundabouts and coming back to the same conclusion, at least now, a brand new, proven rolling road has produced the figures we have been claiming..

Kev

I had bosio race nozzles in my pd130 golf

Also ran water meth

Uprated diblias cam

And instead of an intercooler it ran a charge cooler

Turbo wise it had a hybrid vnt20

All done by the derv doctor with a quoted 323bhp (although i never seen the printout) all i had for a printout was 267bhp

The uprated injectors were then removed and i can tell you it wasnt 220bhp plus

You may need them you may not, its like you may get away with a stock clutch at hybrid power but for how long?

Interesting kev. Never thought about that side of things.

These kind of topics seem to be going around in roundabouts and coming back to the same conclusion, at least now, a brand new, proven rolling road has produced the figures we have been claiming..

Kev

No one's arguing with the figures (even Ben who said it shouldn't be possible), but I think the problem is that we all want some of it, or at least to work out how much "untapped potential" there is with the parts we already have. My VNT17 hybrid is probably not far off topped out, realistically, but for someone like Luke who's spent a fortune on a big turbo and "only" gets 30bhp more than me when his turbo should probably be capable of a lot more, I can see why he's very interested in trying to improve things without having to scrap the investment he's already made and start from scratch with Jabba. Now you've proved it's possible and not just an optimistic RR (I bought a "240bhp" car for example and soon got cut down to size by a certain Mr Wardle ) can you blame us for being interested in what we might be missing out on with few software tweaks?

By the sounds of it, it's beyond software tweaks. More making the care more efficient.

They Obviously know something others dont and they are right to keep it to themselves

Well yeah, it's obviously beyond software tweaks. I'm not saying Jabba should just hand out everything they do, but as I said before there are ways of finding out, it'd be very difficult to keep it a secret. And as with many car parts once someone's figured out "the secret", cheap clones can and do pop up. Some people will still buy the original because it's "the best" and others will take a punt on eBay and have mixed results.

Sorry!!!!

If there are that many differnces between Friggerpants car and the OP/WH car WTF is Friggerpants wondering why his is producing less bhp...even if he thinks that his bottleneck is just the injectors!.....Fitting a bigger/better intercooler will reduce the temp of the air into the engine, better manifold will improve the airflod/speed, bigger/better turbo will defo produce the most improvment, differnt intake system........the two are uncomparable....so WTF is Friggerpants bleating on about then???? :wonder:

Right. The turbo/manifold flows air for 300bhp (see Ryan's jetta on Darkside)

Intercooler doesn't add power, it stops heat soak.

The limiting factor is fuel, full stop. What do you not understand?

Because the argument has always been "the injectors can't flow enough fuel for more than 230bhp". It's been said on numerous occasions, and explained in techy numbers by Shark (both Mikko and Ben). So discussing turbos, ported heads, better FMICs, intake systems etc isn't solving the problem at hand of the injectors not being able to flow enough fuel. If the injectors are at 100% then you can run a turbo as big as you like and it simply wouldn't help.

For example, even my hybrid VNT17 is rated to 240bhp by Turbo Dynamics, but it will only do that with enough fuel, which it's always been said the standard injectors can't provide. And then here's a Jabba car which suddenly does 30bhp over this theoretical limit, it's no wonder people are trying to work out what's been done with the stock injectors to make it do that. The rest of the engine might have been highly modified, but they say they've done nothing with the actual bottleneck part so theoretically the figure Ben got isn't possible (and he's already explained why)!

only mod is bigger turbo...

Fabdavrav raises a valid point, one which many people seem to overlook. We're talking about 2 completely different set-ups here, which in effect offers 2 very different efficiency engines.

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumetric_efficiency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

Kev

Thanks for that!.........Found the other relavent posts in Wiki!.......it still amazes me that people still overlook the basics of air flow and temperature, and the speed/volume of air that the engine ingests and expells!!.........this all makes a bit diferrence BEFORE you start mucking around with timing/injection/duration!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_head_porting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlet_manifold

They Obviously know something others dont and they are right to keep it to themselves

I agree, they should keep it to themselves

:-).

Don't stop me wanna find out what i need to do to make that power though!

Thanks for that!.........Found the other relavent posts in Wiki!.......it still amazes me that people still overlook the basics of air flow and temperature, and the speed/volume of air that the engine ingests and expells!!.........this all makes a bit diferrence BEFORE you start mucking around with timing/injection/duration!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_head_porting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlet_manifold

That's fine and dandy, but the inlet manifolds the same, and so are the cylinder heads.

We've both got massive fmic's. And you'll know, that Intercoolers don't add power, they reduce heatsoak.

I agree, they should keep it to themselves

:-).

Don't stop me wanna find out what i need to do to make that power though!

Get yourself down to jabba and hand them over some cash lol

only mod is bigger turbo...

Plus the Jabba exhaust manifold, larger MAF, FMIC, anti-surge system (whatever that is), different pipework (can't see what's going on in your Pistonheads pics, but the feed from the slam panel doesn't seem to go to your airbox as it should). So it's a bit more than just a bigger turbo IMO?

Unless you don't strictly count the above items as "engine mods", I suppose it depends how you define it. But I would say they are...