sectors fail for a reason, usually something loose inside the hdd casing; these problems tend to spread sooner or later. I have had hdds last for several years with bad sectors, equally i have had hdds fail within weeks of the first bad sector appearing. With hdd prices a fraction of what they were when I first started playing with pcs (£500 for 20MB), it is far better to buy a new drive early, than lose 500GB of films, music, photos and games

I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you, but you're wrong.

You don't end up with sectors going because of a bit of dust/dirt that you've created in the disk and spread all over the place.

If you cause any material to come off the disk surface, then you've likely crashed the head because that's the only way you're going to create lots of material. More likely is chemical break down or various other interactions between the chemicals sprayed on the disk platter, to create the disk surface.

However, one thing that stuck in my mind was something Gentle Giant said - in that Windows may reduce access speeds if it flags errors. I've therefore had a look using Device Manager and certainly the Primary and Secondary IDE drivers are showing current mode is PIO but I'm unsure if that would affect my Maxtor SATA2 drive which is the main drive containing XP etc? (which is running off a SATA controlloer on the motherboard).

No IDE won't affect SATA and PIO mode, is very very old and usually only used by optical drives and the like on IDE.

The reason windows slows down when you get drive errors is nothing to do with windows choosing to do so, and everything to do with the hard drive seeking all over the place to re-allocate sectors. When this happens every read, write and use of the pagefile is very slow, because they all move from sequential to fairly random access.

Have you tried ditching your anti-virus and going to something simpler and less heavy, such as microsoft security essentials?

Edited 9 January, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

Have you tried ditching your anti-virus and going to something simpler and less heavy, such as microsoft security essentials?

It was one of the first things I tried (see first post) but I'll check again if AVG has removed properly as I've still got the stupid AVG Securty Toolbar, albeit disabled...

Really gone off many anti virus programs as of late... AVG seemed slow and annoying, avira was a hog at start up and even slowing down my Quad core desktop machine and there's no way I would ever pay for any software.

I have since installed Microsoft Security Essentials and it really is good.

It sits nice and quietly in the corner and doesn't slow down even my netbook with it's Atom CPU albeit it does has an SSD drive in but still doesn't bog down the relatively slow CPU in it.

Phil

I've seen two pcs that have shown signs of HD failure (windows slow, file corruption etc) that have actually to turned out to be a RAM problem that was fixed by either resitting the DIMM in its slot or replacing it.

OK a bit more progress - sorted the IDE issue over the weekend, tweaked a few settings to get rid of some processes etc. and reinstalled a couple of drivers just in case (wireless keyboard and mouse) but that was about all I managed to do.

It now seems pretty much OK but is occasionally slow and hesitant following first boot up as if it's doing something in the background so I'll keep having a look.

Re the memory I've reseated it once already but guess I need to check the RAM is OK (still showing OK on start up and in Windows...)

Try and get the actual number from the drive, as while I've stated the drive won't drop dirt and die, it might be on it's way out for other reasons.

Certainly make sure you're keeping backups.

I need to check the RAM is OK (still showing OK on start up and in Windows...)

Windows isn't very thorough at checking memory. In the two instances I referred to the memory dimms even passed a "memtest" check but it was the problem as it could be replicated.

Ok wel this has worked fine for the last few weeks but fell over again at teh weekend. This time I didn't bother trying to repair anything I just went straight to check the primary and secondary IDE drivers and lo and behold they'd dropped back to PIO mode... So I removed them and let windows re-install them - made sure they were back to DMA mode etc. and lo and behold all is well again...

I also did a CHKDSK /R on the main hard-drive and no problems.

So it sounds like it's not a SATA HDD problem but why woudl it be dropping back (I don't recall using either of the optical drives at all recently - these being connected to the IDE controllers)...

And is there any way of getting windows to stop dropping back modes - I did a search and have seen something about forcing it to re-set error counters but surely this is resolved in one of the XP Service Packs??

Could it be dodgy cabling to the drives as suggested earlier???

Windows will slow down your HDs if there's any series of read error (i.e. from UDMA5 to UDMA4, 3, 2, 1, PIO4, 3, 2, 1, 0). The "bug" is that by default, it doesn't reset the error count when a good read happens.

There's no way of stopping it from dropping back, this is by design and can be necessary (more so for CDs, but repeated reads can help HDs too). You can protect against the bug though, which still isn't done in SP3.

If you google for "resetdma.vbs" then you should find a VBScript which will reset all your IDE controllers and set the registry entry which bumps the speed back up again when everything goes back to normal.

Windows will slow down your HDs if there's any series of read error (i.e. from UDMA5 to UDMA4, 3, 2, 1, PIO4, 3, 2, 1, 0). The "bug" is that by default, it doesn't reset the error count when a good read happens.

There's no way of stopping it from dropping back, this is by design and can be necessary (more so for CDs, but repeated reads can help HDs too). You can protect against the bug though, which still isn't done in SP3.

If you google for "resetdma.vbs" then you should find a VBScript which will reset all your IDE controllers and set the registry entry which bumps the speed back up again when everything goes back to normal.

Thanks for that - fired it up this morning and it was dead slow again so I've used that VBScript to reset.

I had a quick look at the Computer Management System Error logs this morning and there are lots of 'Disk' and 'ATAPI' errors so I'm guessing a new disk is on the cards after all.

Previously I've used CloneDisk to create a copy of disks I'm replacing so I'm guessing that will work OK?

Have you tried hdd tune yet, that will tell you if the drive is good or bad

Just a word of caution when using a checkdisc type utility to check for bad sectors..........I had a couple of brand new Extermal HD's which were ok up to a point then kept freezing the whole computer (I use win7 U)........So I ran several checkdisc utilities in there standard "quick default modes"....All OK.......after a couple of days got brassed off......so ran the utilities in "slow" custom settings......lo and behold....it found bad sectors then the program would freeze! Got hold of the manufacturer and they wouldn't belive me so I ran their program that they recommend in quick/default mode and it showed the drives as OK........ran it again in "slow" custom settings and it found the bad sectors....sent them a screen shot and got my money back!!!!!

Generally, the quick tests would just read the SMART data and the first few blocks of a partition. But it's entirely possible for SMART to report fine and the FAT/MFT to be fine, I've had loads of duff disks which report "SMART OK" in the BIOS way after they've failed to the point of uselessness.

You're right though, HD manufacturers don't make it obvious that a quick test = a crap test IMO.

Have you tried hdd tune yet, that will tell you if the drive is good or bad

Yep - Ran it some days ago and all seemed OK but then it fell over again at the weekend so I ran HDTune again and it didn't look great but I've left the screenshots at home :(

I'll try and get it to run again tonight and post on here...

<br />I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you, but you're wrong.<br /><br />You don't end up with sectors going because of a bit of dust/dirt that you've created in the disk and spread all over the place. <br />If you cause any material to come off the disk surface, then you've likely crashed the head because that's the only way you're going to create lots of material.  More likely is chemical break down or various other interactions between the chemicals sprayed on the disk platter, to create the disk surface.<br /><br /><br /><br />No IDE won't affect SATA and PIO mode, is very very old and usually only used by optical drives and the like on IDE.<br /><br />The reason windows slows down when you get drive errors is nothing to do with windows choosing to do so, and everything to do with the hard drive seeking all over the place to re-allocate sectors. When this happens every read, write and use of the pagefile is very slow, because they all move from sequential to fairly random access.<br /><br />Have you tried ditching your anti-virus and going to something simpler and less heavy, such as microsoft security essentials?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/223674-hdd-on-its-way-out-or-something-else/page__view__findpost__p__2633550

Where do I mention dust in either of my posts?? As for debris moving inside the casing from the previously mentioned head crash, and causing further damage; this is a well known and documented phenomena.What do you think happens to the fragment of magnetic material chipped off of the surface by a crash??

I suggest you also read the posts mentioning crc errors and what causes them, THEN go and read a few technical papers on the subject.

HOWEVER at the end of the day it doesnt really matter, the drive is damaged, the damage will not go away and cannot be mended, he needs a new drive while he can still access the data, although some of it may already be damaged/corrupted.

I suggest you GET A LIFE, and stop insulting other forum users just because you disagree with them, based on your limited understanding of the subject.

based on your limited understanding of the subject.

Ha ha

I'll let Cheeze enlighten you as to his 'limited' knowledge

Ha ha

I'll let Cheeze enlighten you as to his 'limited' knowledge

Ta, I don't think I'll to go past saying "extensive work in the hard disk production/test equipment and storage industry"

Edited 8 February, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

No IDE won't affect SATA and PIO mode, is very very old and usually only used by optical drives and the like on IDE.

The reason windows slows down when you get drive errors is nothing to do with windows choosing to do so, and everything to do with the hard drive seeking all over the place to re-allocate sectors.

Not that I want to argue with you on the hardware points due to your obvious experience in the industry, but I do have an issue with this. If you're using a SATA motherboard in compatibility rather than AHCI mode, then 99% of the time Windows XP will just use standard IDE drivers which can be affected by drops in speed down to PIO mode 0 if necessary. And while it's not a Windows "choice" to slow the drive down to increase the chances of a successful read, it IS Windows' "choice" to not put the speed back up again when the drive does start to read correctly (i.e. you've passed the bad sector). It's a well documented bug which is why I bring it up, as it essentially means ~8 bad reads in the lifetime of a Windows installation will throttle Windows down to PIO mode and it'll never come back, with the fix I posted only ~8 bad reads in a row will result in PIO mode and then as soon as a good read happens, the error counter is reset and the speed is bumped back up transparently so the user pretty much never notices.

In fact, for all the references I've made to XP, I believe the same problems are still present in Windows Vista and 7, but they're much less prevalent as just about everything comes out of the box set to native SATA/AHCI mode now, rather than compatibility mode.

OK gents - attached are the HD Tune screenshots for my main HDD taken after reinstalling the drivers and getting it back up to DMA mode from PIO...

All comments gratefully received...

I have extensive experience in certain areas of the equipment fitted to HM Nuclear submarines, but I know I am not an expert in many areas associated with them, so I dont spout off about it.

Thanks to gac for his post, I noticed the HUGE error but dont have much time between the heavy duty antibiotics and industrial strength pain killers to make make detailed replies.

Perhaps when I feel better I will trawl through my IBM (and other) technical manuals and post the references to cascade damage in hard drives. Having worked in industrial R&D on computers and electronic contr0ol systems since the hard drive of choice was the 10MB Winchester, I have experienced cascade failures (or whatever the current name used) on more than one occasion.

In the early days the failures were almost always caused by foreign material entering at the production stage, but as I mentioned in MY FIRST POST, head crashes are the most common cause these days; the microscopic debris being thrown around inside the high speed platters, momentarily fouling the read heads, landing on good sectors and causing crc errors, and occasionally causing fresh head crashes which cause further damage.

OK the painkillerd are cutting in, I am going to try and get some sleep.

I have extensive experience in certain areas of the equipment fitted to HM Nuclear submarines, but I know I am not an expert in many areas associated with them, so I dont spout off about it.

As I'm sure this is addressed at me, I'm not spouting off.

A number of people here have had help on issues relating to this from me, because I want to be helpful and no other reasons.

This is the only reason I wanted to make sure the advice was correct.

I have nothing to prove so if you want to feel like I'm spouting off and know nothing, I'm more than happy for you to having this opinion.

All comments gratefully received...

Re-allocated sector count being high = not good. Means sectors have failed and been remapped to spare sectors elsewhere on the drive. However, I've seen drives which have done this early on and then not changed at all over their life, for whatever reason. So if the count is still increasing, it's bad, if it stays static then maybe your drive has got as bad as it's going to get. Worth keeping an eye on, anyway.

I see that the drive you're concerned about is only a 250GB one, if it's any use then I have a spare 250GB SATA Maxtor myself which I can try and test and if it's any good to you, it's yours for the cost of postage. It's not a good time to be buying hard drives at the moment due to flooding in Thailand, so if an old spare is any use to tide you over then let me know and I'll see what I can do.

As I'm sure this is addressed at me, I'm not spouting off.

A number of people here have had help on issues relating to this from me, because I want to be helpful and no other reasons.

This is the only reason I wanted to make sure the advice was correct.

I have nothing to prove so if you want to feel like I'm spouting off and know nothing, I'm more than happy for you to having this opinion.

Some people are always right - i wouldn't worry.....just hit the ignore

Re-allocated sector count being high = not good. Means sectors have failed and been remapped to spare sectors elsewhere on the drive. However, I've seen drives which have done this early on and then not changed at all over their life, for whatever reason. So if the count is still increasing, it's bad, if it stays static then maybe your drive has got as bad as it's going to get. Worth keeping an eye on, anyway.

I see that the drive you're concerned about is only a 250GB one, if it's any use then I have a spare 250GB SATA Maxtor myself which I can try and test and if it's any good to you, it's yours for the cost of postage. It's not a good time to be buying hard drives at the moment due to flooding in Thailand, so if an old spare is any use to tide you over then let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Gac,

Many thanks for the response and offer. I'd come to the same conclusion myself and Windows does seem to keep tripping the access mode down so I think a replacement is on the cards but will keep monitoring anyway.

Re your offer - that is very much appreciated and if it is still open I'd be more than grateful to take it up - if only to check that the problem really is the drive and that there isn't something else awry. It mainly contains XP and a load of photos but the latter are all backed up elsewhere. If nothing else it might make SWMBO happy as she's the main user...

Yeah, I'll dig it out and throw it in something to test it tonight (came out of one of my old PCs several years ago) and assuming it passes the tests I'll drop you a PM to get your address. I'm slowly trying to get rid of the amount of computer-related tat I have knocking around the house and hate throwing stuff away, so giving bits to other people seems like the best way!