Last week I was flashed by a mobile detector van while travelling along a main road, at 11am. The portion of road in question was 40mph (or a least I thought so).

The NIP (notice of intended prosecution) that came through the post claims I was doing 41mph on a 30mph road. I thought that stange, so I revisted the area where I had been flashed.

The road in question is mostly 30mph (where houses are on either side), then towards the end of the road, where it widens (no houses), a 40 mph sign was sited. It was after this where I was flashed.

I've been along this road frequently for the last 15 years, and this has never changed - untill now!

Having revisted the area today I have noted the following:

1. 3 or 4 small speed camera signs attached to lamposts (no limit marked)

2. Empty lampost (where the normal 40mph sign had been for years)

3. Small, red, rectangular sign (text only): "new 30mph limit in force" attached to different lampost.

This size of this sign is one which you would normally see placed underneath a regular road sign for additional info only.

I decided to enter this part of the road from the other direction - and what do you know? Great big, massive sign making a song and dance act about there being a 30 mph limit!

Fair enough. So why not anything even approaching this level of notice for travellers in the opposite direction?

I am really cheesed off at being caught out like this, as I regularly observe speed limits. I have had a clean license for over 5 years.

I feel the need to have this considered in court, rather than just accept a fixed penalty of

In your own words , there are now no signs to say that this is anything other than a 30mph zone and this is even pointed out on an extra notice.

Yes , this quite possibly is a money gathering exercise , but no you don't have any realistic prospect of challenging it.

Pay up and forget about it I'm afraid

Last week I was flashed by a mobile detector van while travelling along a main road, at 11am. The portion of road in question was 40mph (or a least I thought so).

The NIP (notice of intended prosecution) that came through the post claims I was doing 41mph on a 30mph road. I thought that stange, so I revisted the area where I had been flashed.

The road in question is mostly 30mph (where houses are on either side), then towards the end of the road, where it widens (no houses), a 40 mph sign was sited. It was after this where I was flashed.

I've been along this road frequently for the last 15 years, and this has never changed - untill now!

Having revisted the area today I have noted the following:

1. 3 or 4 small speed camera signs attached to lamposts (no limit marked)

2. Empty lampost (where the normal 40mph sign had been for years)

3. Small, red, rectangular sign (text only): "new 30mph limit in force" attached to different lampost.

This size of this sign is one which you would normally see placed underneath a regular road sign for additional info only.

I decided to enter this part of the road from the other direction - and what do you know? Great big, massive sign making a song and dance act about there being a 30 mph limit!

Fair enough. So why not anything even approaching this level of notice for travellers in the opposite direction?

I am really cheesed off at being caught out like this, as I regularly observe speed limits. I have had a clean license for over 5 years.

I feel the need to have this considered in court, rather than just accept a fixed penalty of

Was there 2 x 40mph signs one on each side of the road, if not the camera unit are in breech of regulations.

Re check the size of the cameras signs as they are now regulated. I believe 2 x servicing poice officers got off at Court when they challenged the size, last year.

If the 30mph signs were missing from the direction you were caught, you have won your case. Re-check your route again and confirm.

The best defence is to video the road section.

One minus point you may have to go back miles to the 30mph sign. If no repeater signs you may lose and be awarded the points.

Cheers

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought it was 30 mph by default if lampposts are "n" yards apart; only a higher speed being allowed if clearly shown?

Mo

Was there 2 x 40mph signs one on each side of the road' date=' if not the camera unit are in breech of regulations.

Re check the size of the cameras signs as they are now regulated. I believe 2 x servicing poice officers got off at Court when they challenged the size, last year.

If the 30mph signs were missing from the direction you were caught, you have won your case. Re-check your route again and confirm.

The best defence is to video the road section.

One minus point you may have to go back miles to the 30mph sign. If no repeater signs you may lose and be awarded the points.

Cheers[/quote']

You seem to have misunderstood various urban myths about speeding.

In an area with regularly spaced street lights (186 ft or less IIRC) then the speed limit is 30mph unless otherwise indicated. For a higher speed limit to be in force then you would need the pair of larger signs at the border and regular repeater signs.

In the OPs situation there was nothing in place to indicate that the speed limit was anything other than 30mph.

Just to clarify:

There are no 40mph signs now - there is an empty post where it was attached. I don't know if the 40mph sign was there when I got flashed (probably not).

My gripe is that when there is a change to speed limit in force, it should be properly signposted. The new 30mph sign isn't even a 'normal' MPH sign, it is a small rectangular one with text only. The 40mph sign that was removed was the familiar red circle.

I will need to check the distance between lamposts.

Just to clarify:

There are no 40mph signs now - there is an empty post where it was attached. I don't know if the 40mph sign was there when I got flashed (probably not).

My gripe is that when there is a change to speed limit in force' date=' it should be properly signposted. The new 30mph sign isn't even a 'normal' MPH sign, it is a small rectangular one with text only. The 40mph sign that was removed was the familiar red circle.

I will need to check the distance between lamposts.[/quote']

email inbound with a copy of the rules: it'll take some reading (82 pages!) but will be worth it trust me.........

Just to clarify:

My gripe is that when there is a change to speed limit in force' date=' it should be properly signposted. The new 30mph sign isn't even a 'normal' MPH sign, it is a small rectangular one with text only. The 40mph sign that was removed was the familiar red circle.[/quote']

I tend to agree with this, I was done for speeding on a dual carrageway not far in to a 50mph limit, the start of the road was clearly marked as 60mph.

If the powers that be want us not to speed then they need to make it plain if a lower limit is now in force.

I also agree with Dr Z, in town one must assume it is 30mph unless it says different...it's a bit naughty though if the limit was 40 and they changed it with out proper signs!

I tend to agree with this' date=' I was done for speeding on a dual carrageway not far in to a 50mph limit, the start of the road was clearly marked as 60mph.

If the powers that be want us not to speed then they need to make it plain if a lower limit is now in force.

I also agree with Dr Z, in town one must assume it is 30mph unless it says different...it's a bit naughty though if the limit was 40 and they changed it with out proper signs![/quote']

The defence (as I can remember it) is called "By Habit and Repute" or By Habit and Use" grey cells failing to fire correctly!)

It means that if a road has always been a 40 since construction then the warning signs must be larger than normal when it is changed.

Cases I've been involved in where this has become an issue and the above defence has worked:

1). Ambulance parks just outside an hospital and gets clamped because two days previously the right to park was taken away and the nearest sign was 100 metres away.........case dismissed, costs awarded to the clamping company

2). A 50 mph zone goes to 30mph......ah but, from an approach zone of a 40 mph? Subsequently over 300 drivers get rebates and points wiped out!

3). A 40 mph zone changes (in Scotland) to a 20 mph zone and the duty doctor, returning from a call, gets "zapped".........hmmm, heavyweight barristers get employed and the case is dropped........

4). Ambulance without blues and twos transporting a patient back to hospital gets "zapped" in a road newly tagged as being a 30 and it was previously a 40 zone.........the ruling was "warning signs showing the change of status were wholly inadequeate or non-existent...case dismissed and charges awarded to the Procturator Fiscal"

this is a case that can be won, very easily, and with little effort and okay, maybe not a Martin Luther King moment, will still get an entry into "case law" which is the important thing

My gripe is that when there is a change to speed limit in force' date=' it should be properly signposted. The new 30mph sign isn't even a 'normal' MPH sign, it is a small rectangular one with text only. The 40mph sign that was removed was the familiar red circle.

[/quote']

Rectangular sign?

Rectangular sign?

Like a circle , but with pointier corners

Like a circle , but with pointier corners

thought speed signs were circular?

thought speed signs were circular?

except when the previously defined limit is changed.........

gimme an hour or two and I'll get the exact reference

if I can stay sober long enough

TOO LATE!!

I will try and find it, maybes not tonight, but if a road changes classification it has to be clearly marked as having been changed thus and I'm sure it has to be clearly marked for a period of at least 90 days (night school lawyer!!)

It is my understanding that a 30mph limit can be advertised it two different ways.

In an area where there is no street lighting system exists, circular 30mph speed limit signs are needed and they need to be repeated at reasonable intervals.

In areas where there is a system of street lighting (3 or more columns no less than 200yds/184m apart) then it is a 30mph limit "by vitue of street lighting". If this is the case then it is illegal to sign with the round 30mph red signing, therefore making the speed limit un-enforceable. This is why the 30 signs in rectangles are used, as they are not a sign as defined in the "Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002", they are a "poster"!

All speed limits that are not self advertised need to have a Traffic Regulation Order to be enforceable. So on a high speed road with a system of street lighting, there needs to be a de-restriction order and national speed limit signs repeated at reasonable intervals.

Any further questions, just ask!

I feel the need to have this considered in court, rather than just accept a fixed penalty of

just my 10p worth, but even if it was a 40 limit they could still prosecute you for doing 41, unusual with a tolerance usually given (10% + 3 in fife) but if it is deemed that it was a forty they could impose no tolerance on you for the simple fact you have dragged them to court for 3 points and 60 quid.

Personally, i'd go to court, i love a good fight

Good luck

Post the facts on http://www.5ive-o.com and see what advice that forum has to offer.

Thanks for the replies.

I wondered about the fact that 41mph is 'still' over, but I read somewhere that speeding becomes an absolute offence when travelling at more than 1mph over the limit (ie 42mph).

Here are the pics:

1-4 are in the direction of travel

Pic1 shows the new reduced speed sign, which is sited way ahead of where the old 40mph sign was sited, and way before the speed trap.

Pic 2 shows the empty post where I think the old 40 mph sign was sited. This is further up the road towards the speed trap.

Pic 3 shows further up the road. Notice the distance between lamposts and the 2x yellow signs further ahead.

Pic 4 shows these 2x signs quite clearly, with no mph limit - Why?

(BLUE dot shows location of camera van on right hand side)

Pic 5 shows the 2x LARGE signs at the approach from the OPPOSITE DIRECTION to the area close to speedtrap.

(BLUE dot shows location of camera van on left hand side)

All looks perfectly fine - you have no defense - pay up! Any challenge is going to be more hassle and expense - if you want a definite answer, see a solicitor.

All looks perfectly fine - you have no defense - pay up! Any challenge is going to be more hassle and expense - if you want a definite answer, see a solicitor.

Having now seen the pics I would have to agree...school zone in my neck of the woods are 20mph. It is also in a built up area so one would have to assume 30mph. Not sure I would want to go to court with this one...

If it makes you fell better try, does look as if it could have been better signed however just looking at the pictures the "danger" warning signs are all there, although I know its easy when just going by pictures and not an experienced user of the road. Did you not see the reduced speed limit sign?

new speed limit sign

Reduced width markers

parked cars

school please drive carefully signs

camera sign

Given the 10% error that is built into speedos its possible you where actually travelling at 45 at the school area, and were probably the cars they wanted to pick up.

I think in areas where there are new limits for an initial period that drivers should be stopped and shocked and dependant on attitude and speed let off, and then a few months after proper pointng occurs.

Best of luck with what you decide to do.

John

Definitely pay up. Cheaper and it's sorted then.

The school zone sign will get you when you get to court whether there were clear speed signs or not, i'd pay up.