certainly a couple of sobering stories.

K

Originally posted by TaviaRS in this post

I must be in a minority then, I do not class myself as a good driver in fact I would say I am average. .......... Quite humbling really.

I am sure you are being very modest......Is good the same as safe? If I was to ask peoples opinion of my driving I would like think that I'm regarded as safe. I don't know if that means I am a good driver. I get from A to B trying to keep myself out of harms way and trying not to cause harm or inconvenience to others. If I have to give way to anyone with other priorites, then so be it.

Yes those tales are sobbering. You know when those poor folks set out on their journeys they just expected to get to their destinations safely, they didn't for one minute think they were going to be injured or die.

Isn't that what we all think when we set out?

Jon, it's always good to be humble. Keeps you from taking silly risks. No doubt Jason will attest to your safety attitude to driving :p

I, like you, think of myself as an average driver, always striving to learn and improve. I still catch myself doing something stupid from time to time and think "you tw*t, you could have killed yourself (or somebody else) there ...." and drive more steadily for a while afterwards.

"Roadcraft" is an excellent book, although a very dry read.

Originally posted by robmawer in this post

Isn't Pass Plus just 6 lessons after you've passed where you

get taken on motorways and night time driving? Bascially, stuff

which should be in the compulsory test anyway, judging by the

appalling lane discipline and misuse of lights witnessed on the

roads everyday...

Rob.

Yes it is 6 hour rather than 6 lessons and usually costs about

Originally posted by ncarring in this post

Mike why are you sporting that French flag? Are you French as well as Welsh and Greek? :p

It's Bastille Day. Had the Maple Leaf on July 1st, and the Stars & Stripes on July 4th. There are some more in the pipeline, but I can't remember what dates I've put in, now.

Originally posted by spc in this post

How do you decide who has the requistie skills? We all think we are better than the next man.......it wont happen to us......we all take risks..........and some of us get caught out.........which means injured or killed.....statistically if today is typical 10 people will be killed on our roads.....this will be the result of human failure......poor judgement.....poor risk assessment.....we have to get the basics right before we go to the next level....

The reason I took my advanced tests is precisely because I needed to improve my skill level. I still get caught out, just less often.

Gaining RoSPA GOLD would be a good place for people to start. People who have done it, have demonstrated that they fully understand the roadcraft system.

That's not to say that people who don't bother down the advanced route aren't good drivers. Horses for courses.

I do have a fundamental objection, though, to the principal that lots of experience is needed before being able to drive progressively safely. Some people have 10 years experience. For some that is 10 x 1 years experience.

Originally posted by cra in this post

I do have a fundamental objection, though, to the principal that lots of experience is needed before being able to drive progressively safely. Some people have 10 years experience. For some that is 10 x 1 years experience.

I didn't uphold it as a principle, cra. All I said was that there is no substitute for experience, and I maintain that to be true, unless you are able to find such a varied and sophisticated advanced driving course that it presents you with every strange situation which may arise during the 10 years of driving you quote.

I would like to go on some advanced training, too. However having spoken to many people who have, it seems much of it is taught by rote, rather than adaptability to differing situations. (RoSPA may be different - most of the opinions I have heard were about IAM).

Nick

Mmmm. This is my angle. Tell me what you think.

A 19 year old passes his driving test and joins the police. He does his 2 year probationary period and moves into traffic and becomes a Class 1 police driver.

So at 21 year old he has only 4 years experience of driving. - Is he going to be a safer driver than someone who passed their test at 17 and has driven for 10 years. Who knows? I know who I would rather travel with, though.

As long as people use a consistent proven system (e.g. Roadcraft) when dealing with hazards, then does it really matter how many years experience they have?

Admittedly, the above example is in the extreme.

The principle being that age doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. It is about skill and, perhaps more importantly, attitude.

Nick, have a look at the links I posted. They are not like the IAM or RoSPA ones. Yes, they do teach a system, but they go beyond the every day. For example, to get to silver level (a feat in itself) you are required to drive at night and in varying conditions. They also arrange "events" such as driving bikes or HGVs to gain an appreciation of what it feels like to be an "other" road user. Very useful IMHO.

I know my failings as a driver and yes I am trying to correct them. My failings, in my opinion and that of others who have driven with me:

1. I am not consistent. Yes I am fairly smooth and do use a system, however, I only seem to apply it 80-85% of the time. Probably down to boredom due to the vast mileages I drive.

2. I am sometimes a bit agressive, not towards other road users (on the whole) but to the road itself, ie my approach to roundabouts when the road is clear. Again, it brightens up an otherwise dull day.

3. I get frustrated by other road users, not to the point of foolishness (I hope), mainly due to their lack of attention, general lack of road sense and bad manners.

All of the above are correctable and I am working on them, but it does take time.

The principle being that age doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. It is about skill and, perhaps more importantly, attitude.

I know at 34 I would not do any of the loony stuff I would have done at 24 because I am more aware of my own fragility. For one thing I now have the greatest of responsibilities - kids.

You're right about the attitude part. I would perhaps heighten it's level to "most" importantly, tho. I don't think anything affects attitude like life experience therefore in my book age is a *major* factor.

I sometimes wonder why I bought the vRS. I love the car to bits, and I love knowing how capable it is, but in all honesty it's the family motor and I don't think I could risk it at a track day. Bazzing around the lanes is something that I have become rather averse to, living in the sticks, as I see all too many wreath-strewn tree-stumps.

It appeals to the tart in me, I guess, and is fun on the straight bits.

Regards,

Mark

I'll just add - I think people mistake being a confident driver with being a competent driver.

I'm confident (less so since I got taken out by a red-light-runner a couple of months back) and will get in the car to drive anywhere with impunity. I enjoy any excuse to nip out so long as it's not the grinding commute run. My wife thinks this makes me a good driver as she will have a sleepless night if she thinks she's gonna have to drive anywhere the next day.

Rambling again... Maybe I should sell the vRS and buy some good hiking boots...

Regards,

Mark

Originally posted by cra in this post

A 19 year old passes his driving test and joins the police. He does his 2 year probationary period and moves into traffic and becomes a Class 1 police driver.

Insurance premiums for the police driver will be a lot higher than

the average Joe with 10 years experience.

People with the benefit of youth generally maintain a sense of

invincibility, which accounts for some of their antics and attitudes.

Grade 1 police drivers are taught how to really push on, and a

young police driver will be virtually unstoppable, due to a good

dose of skill and a hefty dose of self-abandonment.

Rob.

well folks, I am 24 and in the insurance world classed as very young, so I pay a serious premium for driving my vRS. I wouldn't change it for anything. I love the car and I love the way it makes me feel.

Anticipation before the drive

Excitement during the drive

Joy afterwards

However, I drive a few miles a year, c20-24k. I have found that insurance people believe this makes you more of a risk. But if the average adult drives 10k per year, then I must obtain about 2 times the experience of that average adult in a year. SO I would say that in my 5 years of driving, I probably have 10 'man years' of experience. I think that should count for something, but in the real world it doesn't.

Back on to topic though, I find my greatest worry with driving is that I do not really know the limits of my car and the 'safety zone' within them. I believe that this would be something that an advanced course would give me. Perhaps doing as many of them as possible is the best way to do it, perhaps not.

Wher is that extra few thousand quid when you need it?

(where did that soap box come from? it was going to be a short reply)

:soapbox:

Keoghan

Originally posted by exFiesta in this post

However, I drive a few miles a year, c20-24k. I have found that insurance people believe this makes you more of a risk. But if the average adult drives 10k per year, then I must obtain about 2 times the experience of that average adult in a year.

Indeed - however, there are lot of people out there who drive

because they have to. They are "licence holders" rather than

"drivers", and they don't pay enough attention to learn from

experiences on the road.

The insurance companies have to account for this, so basically

if they do twice as much mileage, there's double the chance they'll

have an accident in a year.

that I do not really know the limits of my car and the 'safety zone' within them. I believe that this would be something that an advanced course would give me.

I think advanced courses will place the focus on your limits -

a trackday would reveal the limits of your car (although chances

are you'll reach your limits first ).

Personally, I just rely on pushing it progressively further and

back off when it starts hinting at getting uncomfortable. But then

getting to this point in my car isn't too far outside of the

boundaries of what's legal on the roads...

Rob.

Originally posted by robmawer in this post

Insurance premiums for the police driver will be a lot higher than

the average Joe with 10 years experience.

Rob.

How so? Given that police vehicles don't usually have insurance cover (any claims are met by the force) and it seems to be standard practice for police officers to simply state NONE when it comes to previous accidents, I don't understand where you are coming from.

Originally posted by cra in this post

How so? Given that police vehicles don't usually have insurance cover (any claims are met by the force) and it seems to be standard practice for police officers to simply state NONE when it comes to previous accidents, I don't understand where you are coming from.

Insurance cover for their own private vehicles, and they fill their

occupation in as "police driver".

I guess they figure that a young impressionable mind who has the

knowledge of how to GLF might not always be aware of their

own limits or the appropriate time to apply them...

Rob.

Originally posted by robmawer in this post

Insurance cover for their own private vehicles, and they fill their

occupation in as "police driver".

I guess they figure that a young impressionable mind who has the

knowledge of how to GLF might not always be aware of their

own limits or the appropriate time to apply them...

Rob.

Do you have anything to add that is actually based on fact rather than simply your own perception on how things might work?Somwhere, perhaps in a parallel universe?

Originally posted by cra in this post

Do you have anything to add that is actually based on fact rather than simply your own perception on how things might work?Somwhere, perhaps in a parallel universe?

Well, several years ago, my sister-in-law's husband was trained as a Grade 1 police driver. And his insurance was very high

as a result (

I'm not sure but I don't think the Force I am currently working with have any 21 year old Grade 1 drivers. I would think it unlikely that they would start training them at that age.

The rate the Force go through vehicles and write them off in accidents would be a caution to any fleet manager. They're not all supermen ....

Rob - shouldn't your sister-in-law's husband be your brother?

Lol...no, that's my other sister-in-law's husband

It works out as my wife's sister's husband, who I'm not related to in any way other than this...

Rob.

Doh!

But I'm correct in thinking this wouldn't make him my brother-in-law, would it?

In-laws are only ever members of the family's which are "united by marriage"...?

This matrimony lark's more complicated than I at first gave it credit for...

Rob.