winter tyres on

[stevehg]

Well how about you apologise, as there is no law in Germany that says its illegal to run winter tyres in summer.

Also your statement that winter tyres will overheat and have excessive wear if used in summer is wrong and therefore rubbish.

For example have a read here, fom a major tyre manufacturer...

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/automobile/themes/4x4-tyres/winter-tyres/why_winter/4x4_why_winter_en.html

I won't bother replying any more as you are just acting like a child.

[Jabozuma]

Driving on summer tires during winter in Germany will cost you 1point on your licence, €40 if you are causing no problems to traffic flow and €80 if you are going to slowly. Same goes other way round but I am not sure what are the penalties, €40 and no points but mostly you can talk your way out of it.

You are welcome to prove me wrong.

I do not know why do you take a marketing blurb for a fact?

If you drive really gently, slowly, without any acceleration or braking to wrote home about then yes, winter, summer, any tires will be fine during summer.

Winter tyres are build using "softer" runner compounds with larger amount of silica among other additives. This makes the tyre stay playable at low temps. The higher the temps the more playable the tyre gets. This generates heat.

Winter tires have tread pattern constructed in such a way as to provide lots of movement of the small thread blocks to first of all break up hard snow and secondly to generate heat.

Both of the above provide more grip. In the summer the amount of grip provided due to the above is too high due to excessive temperatures tires are generating. In extreme situations it leads to significant tyre pressure increase and can cause high speed blow up. Other result it "melting" of the tyre. Rubber starts "excreting" oils and becomes greasy seriously increasing stopping distance.

All of the above causes rather accelerated use of the rubber if driven normally. If you babysit the tires you will be unlikely to see significantly increased wear of winter tires used during the summer. Please also not a difference between M+S tires and "snowflake" tires. Snowflake will destroy itself very quickly as opposed to M+S, which are mostly all season tires-rather useless.

Hope this helps ones who are interested.

Others, who prefer sanctimonious preaching and throwing toys outta prams better stay in their own little cosy worlds warmly cocooned in their fuzzy feelings of righteousness

[Llanigraham]

This:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-and-snow-chains.html

seems to imply that you are not totally correct, and you will only get fined if your vehicle gets stuck.

To quote:

If your vehicle becomes stuck during the winter months because the tyres are unsuitable you will be liable to an on the spot fine in Germany. If the vehicle causes an obstruction and aggravation to other traffic, the fine may be doubled. You may also be prevented from continuing your journey.

[stevehg]

Driving on summer tires during winter in Germany will cost you 1point on your licence, €40 if you are causing no problems to traffic flow and €80 if you are going to slowly. Same goes other way round but I am not sure what are the penalties, €40 and no points but mostly you can talk your way out of it.

You are welcome to prove me wrong.

You are wrong, I'm fully aware of the law about using summers in winter. It does not apply to using winter tyres in summer as you state. You need to look again.

Others, who prefer sanctimonious preaching and throwing toys outta prams better stay in their own little cosy worlds warmly cocooned in their fuzzy feelings of righteousness

You are either misreading my posts, or on another planet. I haven't been been preaching or throwing toys out of the pram as you imply. When you state something is law when it is not, i think it's quite acceptable to say that is rubbish and correct you.

As for comments about excessive tyre wear and over heating with winters in summer, you are incorrect again. Show me the proof.

[stevehg]

I persoanly think 10C is still fine to drive normally and baby sit the tyres. Above a bit caution needed. between 15-20 drive like on egg shells lol.

Best way to use a gauge and measure thread - this way you will get solid data and not opinions .

Also, the heavier the car the worse the damage.

This an example of a post of yours above. Lets take UK weather last year 2011 where in December we saw temps in your 15-20 deg C range. What you are saying is that all of the drivers on winter tyres were on the verge of impending disaster? This is complete rubbish.

The fact is that in average temps below 7 deg C a winter tyre is going to perform better for grip, stability and braking. In temps averaging above the a summer tyre is going to have an advantage. You can run both sets of tyres outside this range with acceptable performance.

So I'm not advocating running winter tyres all year round, as clearly in warmer temps a summer tyre will be better, however, it is perfectly ok to do so. The point of posting the Continental link above was an example of a global manufacturer that invests significant sums in tyre research stating that its ok to run winters all year round. If there were the risks you are stating of excessive wear and over heating they would not be making this statement.

[stevehg]

Hi Jabozuma

You will like this link....

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/extremes/monthly_temperature_country.html

According to your advice in this topic, it would suggest that it is positively dangerous to run winter tyres between October and April in the UK.

With individual daily temps often higher than 15deg C and max records of 29.9 deg C in the past it's appears that we should be having mass winter tyre failures.

[okenobi]

Well, I will say without getting into an argument, that I bought some gear over the weekend and measured my tread. There is a full 8mm on all 4 tyres and they've done around 500m so far. Most of that was in excess of 12 degrees. On one occasion, they did see some 60mph cruising in 16 degrees. However, they definitely gripped exceptionally well on Saturday night in 6 degrees and rain on twisty B roads near Lands End. Far better than any other tyre I've EVER run.

I think it's sensible to take it easy on them when it's warmer and I shall continue to do so. But I can't wait to get some snow, either here, or in Europe....

[Yearofthegoat]

I don't care overmuch what happens in Germany (from what I could gather, you're supposed to drive with tyres that are fit for the conditions and if you cause a problem because you're not doing so you can be fined. It seems there's no specific law that says 'no winter tyres in summer' though).

All I'm concerned about is putting them on too soon - i.e. before it's cold enough - and wearing them out unduly. Putting them on too late doesn't worry me as much, because this is the first set of winter wheels I've had and so far - touch wood - no accidents in winter on summer tyres. But I know I'm not getting the benefit of winters in cold and wet conditions.

I think I'll go ahead and put them on next weekend - they have to go on sometime or it'll be a waste! And they're £40 a corner cheaper than my summers so if they wear a bit, well it's probably not much of a loss.

And like okenobi, I'll be looking forward to the snow for a change.

Edited 29 October, 2012 by Yearofthegoat

[Jabozuma]

Iwill reply to this shortly, have no time now...

Getting StVO translated takes time but in general Yearofthe goat is absolutely spot on

[stevehg]

All I'm concerned about is putting them on too soon - i.e. before it's cold enough - and wearing them out unduly.

You will be fine putting them on now.

For what it's worth, as its just a single example, my wife's fiat 500 has done over 21,000 on Conti 830 snow tyres over two years, fronts ~4.5mm, rears ~5mm. So we didn't get undue wear from running them in higher temps.

Can't give you data on superb as it runs on summers all year round.

Cheers

Steve

[Jabozuma]

This:

http://www.theaa.com...now-chains.html

seems to imply that you are not totally correct, and you will only get fined if your vehicle gets stuck.

To quote:

If your vehicle becomes stuck during the winter months because the tires are unsuitable you will be liable to an on the spot fine in Germany. If the vehicle causes an obstruction and aggravation to other traffic, the fine may be doubled. You may also be prevented from continuing your journey.

Wrong, you WILL get fined when you are driving a car with summer tires and there is snow slush, snow or ice on the roads no questions asked. Winter time but none of the above conditions occur but it is -20 and your summer tires changed into hard plastic providing no grip even on bone dry and clean black tarmac causing you to drive slowly and over cautiously resulting in slow traffic - double the fine and stopped until you change your tires.

But hey, AA said so so that IS THE TRUTH lol.

[Jabozuma]

You are wrong, I'm fully aware of the law about using summers in winter. It does not apply to using winter tyres in summer as you state. You need to look again.

StVO clearly states that your vehicle should be prepared and appropriately equipped for the travel conditions.

This is all encompassing law which brings winter tires usage during summer under it. No German driver would be insane enough to waste winter tires during summer hence such problem doesn't exist, usually Brits, Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks - people from warm to temperate climate countries are getting done for it in Germany as deemed unsafe to travel along their road networks.

Here's the full text for you to brush up upon

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bundesrecht/stvo/gesamt.pdf

You are either misreading my posts, or on another planet. I haven't been been preaching or throwing toys out of the pram as you imply. When you state something is law when it is not, i think it's quite acceptable to say that is rubbish and correct you.

As for comments about excessive tyre wear and over heating with winters in summer, you are incorrect again. Show me the proof.

What proof do you want me to show you? That physics works? That winter tires are made of much softer compounds and move much more that summer tires, especially in summer temps and that leads to much higher usage as the rubber gets much softer and wears off quicker? THat is basic 101 of material physics - the softer the material the quicker it wears of when friction action is applied.

Read this

http://www.guideauto.../articles/4424/

And here is your scientific test

http://www.ama.ab.ca...summer-2008.pdf

THere is plenty more but those just popped up first in the search engine.

Here's advice from Fulda,

http://www.bussgeldk...ommer/index.php

This an example of a post of yours above. Lets take UK weather last year 2011 where in December we saw temps in your 15-20 deg C range. What you are saying is that all of the drivers on winter tyres were on the verge of impending disaster? This is complete rubbish.

The fact is that in average temps below 7 deg C a winter tyre is going to perform better for grip, stability and braking. In temps averaging above the a summer tyre is going to have an advantage. You can run both sets of tyres outside this range with acceptable performance.

So I'm not advocating running winter tyres all year round, as clearly in warmer temps a summer tyre will be better, however, it is perfectly ok to do so. The point of posting the Continental link above was an example of a global manufacturer that invests significant sums in tyre research stating that its ok to run winters all year round. If there were the risks you are stating of excessive wear and over heating they would not be making this statement.

It is not perfectly good to do so and stop repeating that very dangerous piece of advice! People may get hurt if they take on your advice! Summer tires in winter conditions, especially below zero, which is almost daily occurrence here in UK turn into hard plastic and offer massively increased stopping distances. This is aggravated by the fact that drivers are used to the performance of their summer tires during summer months and drive accordingly. What surprise awaits then winter time the first time they had to brake in emergency - that kiddo is dead pal! The same thing goes for winter tires in summer.

You will be fine putting them on now.

For what it's worth, as its just a single example, my wife's fiat 500 has done over 21,000 on Conti 830 snow tyres over two years, fronts ~4.5mm, rears ~5mm. So we didn't get undue wear from running them in higher temps.

Can't give you data on superb as it runs on summers all year round.

Cheers

Steve

Fiat 500 is a very light motor vehicle. I am sure your wife is driving it rather gently, didn't have to emergency brake or perform an emergency avoidance maneuver during hot (do we get them here in UK anymore) summer months. This is judging from the tires usage and your badly misguided attitude. Uneventful driving at a stately pace can be done at any tires any time of the year. Only when you start asking your rubber questions, only then you will learn the hard way why I am ranting on about it so much trying to convince you to first of all stop spreading dangerous advice and secondly potentially save somebody's life or health when you come to your senses and start using the right tires for the right season.

Edited 4 November, 2012 by Jabozuma

[stevehg]

Jabozuma you are so full of crap.

You were the one giving advice. For example running winter tyres in summer in Germany is illegal. Wrong! There is no law in Germany that makes this illegal.

Secondly, you stated that running winter tyres in summer would give excessive wear and overheating. Even going as far as stating that its dangerous to run them in temps higher than 15 deg C. A temp often found in UK betweeen the months of October and April. Again this is incorrect. Yet you refuse to accept it.

Now you are stating that running summer tyres in the winter is dangerous and sensationalising it by stating that children will get killed. As per my first statement you are so full of crap., but feel free to carry on as you are doing a good job of making yourself look a fool to that point that no one will consider taking you advice. So carry on ;)

[Gizmo]

Jabozuma you are so full of crap.

As per my first statement you are so full of crap., but feel free to carry on as you are doing a good job of making yourself look a fool to that point that no one will consider taking you advice. So carry on ;)

Steve I do believe you are a bit late with this, I came to the same conclusion a couple of weeks ago.

[hollinworth2006]

StVO clearly states that your vehicle should be prepared and appropriately equipped for the travel conditions.

This is all encompassing law which brings winter tires usage during summer under it. No German driver would be insane enough to waste winter tires during summer hence such problem doesn't exist, usually Brits, Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks - people from warm to temperate climate countries are getting done for it in Germany as deemed unsafe to travel along their road networks.

Here's the full text for you to brush up upon

http://www.gesetze-i...stvo/gesamt.pdf

What proof do you want me to show you? That physics works? That winter tires are made of much softer compounds and move much more that summer tires, especially in summer temps and that leads to much higher usage as the rubber gets much softer and wears off quicker? THat is basic 101 of material physics - the softer the material the quicker it wears of when friction action is applied.

Read this

http://www.guideauto.../articles/4424/

And here is your scientific test

http://www.ama.ab.ca...summer-2008.pdf

THere is plenty more but those just popped up first in the search engine.

Here's advice from Fulda,

http://www.bussgeldk...ommer/index.php

It is not perfectly good to do so and stop repeating that very dangerous piece of advice! People may get hurt if they take on your advice! Summer tires in winter conditions, especially below zero, which is almost daily occurrence here in UK turn into hard plastic and offer massively increased stopping distances. This is aggravated by the fact that drivers are used to the performance of their summer tires during summer months and drive accordingly. What surprise awaits then winter time the first time they had to brake in emergency - that kiddo is dead pal! The same thing goes for winter tires in summer.

Fiat 500 is a very light motor vehicle. I am sure your wife is driving it rather gently, didn't have to emergency brake or perform an emergency avoidance maneuver during hot (do we get them here in UK anymore) summer months. This is judging from the tires usage and your badly misguided attitude. Uneventful driving at a stately pace can be done at any tires any time of the year. Only when you start asking your rubber questions, only then you will learn the hard way why I am ranting on about it so much trying to convince you to first of all stop spreading dangerous advice and secondly potentially save somebody's life or health when you come to your senses and start using the right tires for the right season.

Ha Ha Full, of yourself.....

Learn how to spell tyres before you comment on them. (its TYRES not TIRES)

[Jabozuma]

All that testing is conveniently brushed under the carpet?

Poor deluded fool, I just hope you do not get hurt anybody with your larger than life redneck attitude. Ignoring physics, independent testing, but eager to gobble up any odd crap salesman is serving. Suit yourself.

The only crap here is in your posts you sad, deluded person with ears full of wax and scrambled brain not able to learn anything new or change your point if view even I the face of an overwhelming, scientific evidence.

All the Motorsport professionals are wrong as well, after all running softer tires would be much better, they give more grip and according to you it doesn't wear off any more than harder compounds...

I just pity you ...

[Kenny R]

Zzzz, anyone else bored with this?

[Jabozuma]

I am do I am out of it, bored with banging my head against a concrete wall of wanton ignorance...

[devonutopia]

Meh, locking this now after such degeneration!

I happily run all seasons in winter, even in 6" snow and on ice I've been able to get around. Its down to the driver and how they drive, more than the rubber on the ground.