Wifes car doesn't get used at the weekends, as the temperature starts to drop it struggles to start in the mornings. This morning it was around 6 degs so not really that cold, but still wouldn't go. Will completely drain battery without starting. However, connect it up to my car and it fires up after 4-5 secs turning over.

Details:

2003 Pug 206 2.0HDI DTurbo.

New battery in April

Glow plugs changed 2 yrs ago. (approx 6k since)

All warm up lights come on a go off as normal

Turns over fairly strongly on own power, no stronger when connected to my Octy.

When it does eventually start, runs smooth immediately, no misfire (so for time being eliminating glow plug failiure)

No info on battery output at mo, multimeter broken. Should have new one today.

Anyone got any ideas, I'm open to as many suggestions that you can throw my way.

it does sound like the battery is too weak. What amp is it?

i had a 2.0hdi and it was an insufferable engine, but had similar issues, needs a good cold crank battery, also make sure it has 5w30 oil in there, as dealers plop in 10w40, viscosity of oil on hdi units it critical as tolerances are set very finely.

You dont wanna know the other possibility

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by Lofty79

Battery is 56ah, which I thought would be sufficient?

Good point on the oil though, somebody mentioned that before by never gave it a second thought.

You're right, I probably don't want to know the other possibility. But give us a clue anyway.

Cheers for the reply.

56 ah is waaaaaaayyy too weak, 72ah minimum, thats a wee petrol battery that one.

Other possibility is the fuel pump is beginning to fail, when this happens it throws shards of metal throughout the fuel system and into rail, meaning about £2000. What mileage is it? If its over 100k then its probably not a concern, if its around 70k thats when they go.

My money is on weak battery though, the glow plugs are little used on these so compression is key, it may sound strong but could just be below what engine needs to fully fire her up.

With oil use the correct spec 5w30 fully synthetic and mpg/cold start/smooth idle will all improve

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by Lofty79

It's on 80k!!! Fuel pump failiure sounds like an absolute nightmare, although I don't think that is the problem.

What you say make sense regarding low output batt, bearing in mind it fires up ok when connected to my diesel Octy.

My own fault I guess. Shouldn't have been such a tight git when I replaced it.

Anyone want a 56ah car battery, 6 months old? I'll do you a good deal.

Thanks for your help Lofty, top man.

no probs, save yourself some money, measure battery tray and go to a breakers yard, hunt through theyre batteries and find one thats still holding a charge, i got a 95ah from a scrappies, it was £20, been on there a year now and spins my heavy diesel up nae bother at all.

just checked the manufacturers spec of battery and they say 75ah so there you go.

Keep us posted and let us know if that sorts it

I'd put in a new fuel filter if you have not already and drain the water out of the fuel filter tank too if it's a tank not a cartridge type.

I'd suggest that what's actually happening is that there is a leak either on the fuel filter (so fit all new seals) or on one of the fuel pipes, which means over night a small amount of air gets in and allows the derv to run back to the tank and get air in the lines.

Try parking the car nose down and see if that helps. If it does then new filter, check all the pipes and put all new seals on the filter.

As above the battery won't help one bit either.

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by cheezemonkhai

I'd put in a new fuel ... As above the battery won't help one bit either.

This sounds plausible. Does the HDi have a primer bulb (rubber bulb about the size of a tennis ball) in the LP fuel feed? If so, try pumping that for a few seconds, then, without stopping pumping, try and start it. If it now fires up right off, then you definitely have an air leak as above

it does have a bulb yes, but the car starts perfectly when jumped from his octy. so battery must be the issue

This sounds plausible. Does the HDi have a primer bulb (rubber bulb about the size of a tennis ball) in the LP fuel feed? If so, try pumping that for a few seconds, then, without stopping pumping, try and start it. If it now fires up right off, then you definitely have an air leak as above

Wow. That takes me back!

I'm surprised the HDIs have the priming bulb on them.

I remember running out in my Citroen ZX. Had a can of derv in the boot to poured it in and primed the pump for ages. Even with this it wook a lot of cranking to get going and loads of smoke out the back.

Phil

Thanks again for all of your replies. It's possibly a combination of the two (battery and fuelling) as when it's connected to my car it will still take a few seconds of turning over to get going, it's not instant like normal. But it could be the turning over on it own battery causing the delay when using my car's power. Can you flood a diesel engine??

Another thing of note would be that when it is turning over on its own battery, it does produce a bit of smoke (out the back pipe) without actually firing. Which suggest some fuel is getting through, maybe?

I'll give the fuel pump a good priming tomorrow morning and see if it makes any difference, but a new batt is definitely on the way.

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by AD07881

AH right then likely it is fuelling then. no you cant flood them, they just start.

new filter, leak check, and pump the bulb, if it doesnt have one you can buy em for £7

sorry didnt realise it still took too much time when jumped.

battery still too small though

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by Lofty79

You can over-fuel a diesel, which produces black soot out the back. That won't cause starting problems tough. "Flooding" a petrol engine basically covers the spark plug electrodes in unburnt fuel so that they can't produce a spark any more until they dry off. Since diesels don't need a spark...

Smoke colour?

Ken, White smoke. Is that good, bad or neither?

Don't get me wrong lofty, there's no doubt a power supply issue. Which I appreciate the advice on.

I'd say it turns over 4-6 times on my cars power to start. Where as you get nothing on its own power. Could just be because it's cold and a little old that takes the time.

Here's another one for you knowledgeable gents if you fancy a go.

VW T4 1.9td (No "i"!!). Only used every other weekend or so.

Go to start after standing for a long time, and engine barely turns over like a dead battery. Jump start with my car (I'd be screwed without my octy!!) and it turns marginally quicker but will start eventually. I thought it was a duff battery until i had a fuel issue a few weeks ago. The issue....there wasn't any in her tank.

Petrol station is less than a mile from mine. Got her running, pulled out my drive. Stalled. Starts under own power after tunring over for a good 15-20 seconds. get to the end of the road, same again. End of that road, same again. You get the picture.

There's no way it could have charged enough between the starting and the first stall to turn the engine over for the 15-20 seconds that i did or the subsequent 4/5 times afterwards, which makes me think that it may not have been a flat battery that stopped her firing up.

Any thoughts?

As you can see, starting cars on cold mornings is a sore subject for me at the mo. And in case you were wondering, I did make it to the petrol station.

Ken, White smoke. Is that good, bad or neither?

Don't get me wrong lofty, there's no doubt a power supply issue. Which I appreciate the advice on.

I'd say it turns over 4-6 times on my cars power to start. Where as you get nothing on its own power. Could just be because it's cold and a little old that takes the time.

Glowplugs not coming up to temperature. It could be them, it could be the control box, or if could be the small/weak battery. Since you reckon the battery needs doing anyway, do it first, then voltmeter to test the glowplugs.

Ken, White smoke. Is that good, bad or neither?

Don't get me wrong lofty, there's no doubt a power supply issue. Which I appreciate the advice on.

I'd say it turns over 4-6 times on my cars power to start. Where as you get nothing on its own power. Could just be because it's cold and a little old that takes the time.

Sounds like your fuel filter has a load of water in it to me and it's taking a while for enough derv to get to the car to start. Certainly change it, replace any seals you come across and check the pipes for leaks.

If you leave it like that through the winter and it is full of water, then it can freeze and split open the fuel filter or canister.

If it's a drop in filter then do drain it of water/fuel and safely dispose of it otherwise you'll have the same issue.

At the same time, the battery isn't helping matters.

Edited 19 November, 201213 yr by cheezemonkhai

Ok gents, drained off fuel filter, only diesel coming out!!

Checked batt which is supplying 12.4v.

Anyone have any ideas how I could go about checking power supply to glow plugs? There's a cable connecting all four plugs, which I assume is the +, where should I be connecting for the -?

the - or negative is the engine itself, pull out a plug and hold the threads on the engine somewhere, when the ignition is turned you should see it getting hotter and glowing

Ok gents, drained off fuel filter, only diesel coming out!!

Checked batt which is supplying 12.4v.

Anyone have any ideas how I could go about checking power supply to glow plugs? There's a cable connecting all four plugs, which I assume is the +, where should I be connecting for the -?

Engine running or not? That's a decent enough level for ignition off, but waay too low with it running.

If you didn't change the filter and seals, then if it hasn't been done in the last say 20k miles, do change it.

No water is good, but the filter can still be quite blocked or the seals/pipes letting a small amount of air leak into the system, through the smallest of pinholes.

Lofty, if i stick my meter on the plug supply, and the other on the engine block, this should give me a reading? Really can't be doing with taking a plug out, they are in the most awkward place possible.

Ken, ignition off, so all good in terms of voltage

Cheeze, good point on being blocked. Never been changed since we've owned it. Even if its not the issue, prob worth doing anyway.

Lofty, if i stick my meter on the plug supply, and the other on the engine block, this should give me a reading? Really can't be doing with taking a plug out, they are in the most awkward place possible.

Ken, ignition off, so all good in terms of voltage

Cheeze, good point on being blocked. Never been changed since we've owned it. Even if its not the issue, prob worth doing anyway.

Can't hurt

A lead acid cell should deliver 2.2 volts. A "12v" battery has 6 cells so you should have 13.2v. If you cant get more than 12.6v after charging then it is knackered.

Your symptoms in #15 can be the early signs of a cell going T-U.

There are so many ways to abuse a hi-rate discharge ammeter that unless you know and trust the user, I'd forget it. Anyway, your battery is not really capable of supplying enough amps in winter conditions for a Diesel, so I'd get that sorted first.

Next, as mentioned, change the fuel filter. And all the O rings/gaskets. Several have mentioned air leaks, these can occur at banjo fittings. Dismantle and check for damage, scratches etc across the sealing surfaces. A smear of grease can sometimes help seal in these cases. The copper sealing washers work harden and stop sealing. Aluminium ones tend to get chewed up. A tiny discontinuity which may be invisible to the naked eye could be causing the problem. I used to use Dowty seals on my old Pug, but needed a longer banjo bolt.

I have had exactly the same symptoms when a glow plug went. Sure direct injection engines are supposed to start without, but they still need some help to fire up immediately, more so in the cold. Which is what you are complaining about. Check the plugs and controlbox. No idea what values you should have on a Pug. Have just checked a VAG TDI glow plug and it had a resistance of around 130-150 Ohms.

It may be a pain - most of these checks are - but unless you do, then I guess you will have to put up with it.

One tip I found. Know it does drain battery a bit,but on older vauxhalls ,I found that a few applications of the glow plugs worked wonders.