Octy Vrs TDI Clutches

[wigster]

Hi guys,

I'm hoping to get some help with my clutch.

The car's done 70k miles, and has been remapped to 210bhp/336 ft/lb. I've been having a fantastic time enjoying this extra level of performance, but it looks like this is now starting to take it's toll on the clutch, with a bit of slip starting to happen if I give it some heavy right foot.

I've managed to get a few prices in, but was wondering if anyone had any recommendations. I do want to go for the uprated clutch, as the power is just too good to not enjoy fully. The prices I've had are:

- Clutch Specialists/CG Motorsport: £600 for an uprated, dual friction clutch & DM flywheel. VAT included, but no fitting

- Larkspeed, about £700 for what looks like similar stuff to CG above

- The guys who did my remap came in with £1300, for DMF, uprated clutch, release bearing/slave cylinder, and fitting.

I won't be fitting this myself, rather getting the parts together for the garage that I normally use.

I'm also guessing from all I've managed to find that it would be silly to:

a. Go for a single mass flywheel on a diesel of this output

b. Not replace the DMF, as it could let go soon and take the new clutch out with with it.

So, any recommendations or other advice would be really appreciated.

Edited 3 January, 2013 by wigster

[cheezemonkhai]

Nothing wring with an SMF as long as it's not too light.

[Grizzle]

Speak to GNJ Motorsport

I've just ordered this should be here tomorrow

http://www.gnjmotorsport.com/products/LOBA-Motorsport-Single-Mass-Flywheel-and-Sachs-Clutch-Conversion-Octavia-1Z-2.0-TDI-%2805%252d%29.html

[silver1011]

Ouch, £889 + fitting.

[Grizzle]

well it is capable of holding 405 lb/ft of torque

[silver1011]

Do you really need a performance clutch / DMF?

This Sachs clutch / DMF can be fitted for £600 inc. VAT...

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/sachs-2-0-tdi-6-speed-02q-dual-mass-flywheel-and-clutch-kit.html

[Grizzle]

True, but i need a performance clutch

[silver1011]

Hehe, I'm guessing if the car is mapped then it could soon eat its way through another non-performance clutch and DMF pretty quickly!

[wigster]

As it's "only" looking like an extra £100 for the performance clutch, I'll be going down that route.

@Grizzle, why the single mass flywheel? I see you've got the petrol engine, but I have seen postings/other info suggesting that the DMF helps protect the gearbox/drivetrain from some of the high engine loads. Also that it really isn't nice to drive with a SMF on a mapped diesel.

[andyvee]

Speak to Darkside, they know their stuff.

I don't know where you got it from about SMF and remaps, the SMF is only there to take the lumpiness out at low revs.

Anyone I know who has converted to SMF wouldn't go back to DMF.

[wigster]

Cheers Andy - Have emailed them with details of what I'm after.

They certainly seem to have some nice stuff.

[Grizzle]

As it's "only" looking like an extra £100 for the performance clutch, I'll be going down that route.

@Grizzle, why the single mass flywheel? I see you've got the petrol engine, but I have seen postings/other info suggesting that the DMF helps protect the gearbox/drivetrain from some of the high engine loads. Also that it really isn't nice to drive with a SMF on a mapped diesel.

The Petrol DMF's are weak when you start adding more power and torque, i've never heard of anyone having issue with a SMF certainly not on a petrol, i have driven a SMF fabia was very "clattery" but it was running crazy torque.

My LOBA clutch arrived yesterday

[wigster]

Guys - can anyone explain what the advantage of SMF is over DMF? None of the people I've been talking to about prices have suggested making the move to SMF, and have only given negative comments about SMF in a diesel. I understand that a lightened SMF will allow the engine to rev up faster, but while this might work nicely for petrol (especially for any kind of track action), it doesn't seem appropriate for a low-revving diesel that is currently very nice at just trundling down the motorway at 90-95 (only where conditions permit it of course)

There certainly doesn't appear to be any immediate cost saving (the SMF conversion kits actually seeming to be more expensive), and I really don't want to lose any of the nice smooth, quiet running of the car. If all it means is that I have to change the DMF as well as the clutch every 7 years/100,000 miles, I think I can cope with that.

[Andy@CG-Motorsport]

Hi guys,

Just seen this thread!!

Heres a quick copy and paste from a Honda CDTi post I did recently regarding our clutches and SMF vs DMF, I hope this helps. The Honda flywheel is a lot weaker than the one used in the Skoda but as a rule just replace Honda with Skoda and civic with Fabia/Octavia.

Anyone else with any questions please PM me.

----------

So why go for the SMF?

The SMF provides a near unbreakable solution to the 'flimsy' Honda DMF. The very 'Single Mass' nature of the SMF means it does not succumb to the same issues as a DMF and is a realistic long term solution to those running large BHP and torque who want to know they will not have to disassemble the transmission again to replace the Flywheel.

Furthermore as it is a single unit gear changes are quicker giving those who need it major performance increases off the line, at traffic lights and off the grid for those taking it on track days. This represents a real increase in 0-60 time and maximizes all the potential of that remap you spent £300 on!!!

The first thing to be said is that you are buying a competition clutch and flywheel kit. If your looking at this page its safe to say you've remapped your Civic and the increase in power has caused the clutch to slip due to increased torque that the standard Honda set up was not built to take.

As some people have already commented the DMF will send judder through the car, this is the natural repercussion of the competition clutch kit. This judder has always been a matter of interpretation and is always dependant on the state of the car, the driving style and the preference of the driver. Remember one mans pleasure is another mans poison. Early testing has shown there can be some judder with the SMF but it is slight (as with the DMF) and is picked upon heavily by some and goes unnoticed by the majority of people.

Some people have also shown alot of concern for the affect of running a SMF on the gearbox. This dampening has been addressed in that all SMF kits can be purchased with CG Motorsport sprung drive plates as apposed to the OE rigid plates supplied for the DMF.

If you have anymore questions about the SMF please be sure to post them below. In summary the SMF represents the most cost effective solution for those running long term high torque figures. There are a few negatives- as addressed above, but these are the consequences of a competition transmission set-up designed to utilized modern remaps and tuning that are light years ahead of the base drive-train spec of the Civic.

So what clutch to put with the SMF?

As you can see there are a few options of clutch combinations for the Civic, firstly I imagine if your going for the SMF you have already increased power to your Honda. This means you need to upgrade the standard clutch. This is built to take standard power and will be redundant very quickly in a car with increased torque through a remap.

CG Motorsport Exclusive Dual Friction Kit

The Dual Friction kit is the modification of choice for those with 'stage 1' or 'economy' remaps running upto 200BHP or 295lb/ft of torque. Most people chose the Dual Friction kit as it keeps a natural drive feel whilst allowing the power to flow through the transmission. If your wife/girlfriend shares the car some days but you want to know the performance is there for you when up needed this is for you. Its not as fast through the gears as a paddle and is not recommended for those wanting to take their Civic on track days or other performance events.

CG Motorsport Exclusive 8 Paddle Clutch Kit

Designed for Civic customers by Civic customers. The 8 paddle addresses the jumpy on/off nature of the more extreme 6 paddle. Built to take stage 2 remaps (Celtic and Premier Tuning) this kit allows for around 220BHP and 320lb/ft. This kit has been made for the 'typical' Civinfo driver who wants power in their daily driver but does not want that out and out race car feel. If you like to do some real driving and the odd track day this is the clutch for you.

CG Motorsport 6 Paddle Clutch Kit

Made for the real racers out there this is not for the light-hearted. If track days are your thing and you like to get the most out of your drive this is the clutch for you. Designed to take high end stage 3 maps this clutch allows for 240BHP and 350 lbs/ft of torque to be taken through the transmission. If speed matters to you get this kit, you will feel a dramatic increase in 0-60 times, sharp gear changes and a complete change in the drive of the car.

[wigster]

Thanks for the comprehensive posting Andy, but I do have some follow on thoughts/questions:

1. I know you said to basically replace Civic with Octavia, but my diesel is now pushing about 335ft/lbway more than the Civic example
   
2. I am not interested in any kind of track work with it. I really like it as a relaxed, but very effective, back roads tool
   
3. I do not want to lose any of the smoothness of drive, or have a clutch that needs the legs of a power lifter to keep it pressed in.
   
4. I have heard from several places (including other people I've asked for quotes on the new clutch) that the SMF's cause a lot of rattling.
   
5. I recently had an email conversation with a journalist from one of the car maintenance magazines, who also has a remapped diesel Octavia, and said "No way would I fit a solid flywheel" (although with no specific reason given)
   

[Andy@CG-Motorsport]

Hi,

1. I know you said to basically replace Civic with Octavia, but my diesel is now pushing about 335ft/lbway more than the Civic example.... Not really yours is tuined to the same level as most tuned Civs.
   
2. I am not interested in any kind of track work with it. I really like it as a relaxed, but very effective, back roads tool, 8 paddle for you then
   
3. I do not want to lose any of the smoothness of drive, or have a clutch that needs the legs of a power lifter to keep it pressed in. Again 8 paddle.
   
4. I have heard from several places (including other people I've asked for quotes on the new clutch) that the SMF's cause a lot of rattling. SMFs create a naturally harmonic noise through the transmission, rattling may occour if you dont set off with the correct number of revs (a bit at around 1500 should reslove this)
   
5. I recently had an email conversation with a journalist from one of the car maintenance magazines, who also has a remapped diesel Octavia, and said "No way would I fit a solid flywheel" (although with no specific reason given) Everyone has their own opinion.... maybe push for more reasons. I know clutches not paragraphs :think: