Better Together or Independance?

[Jockdooshbag]

PS I think you're welcome to the nukes, you can't afford them, neither can we and the MOD reckons they're too dangerous to be near civilians (OK to site them outside Glasgow for the last 50 years though)

Jockdooshbag

as you feared this thread has brought out the usual vitoriolic posts from the "jilted lover" school of thought that sadly seems so prevalent among our southern neighbours when we dare to ponder a future without them.

Before this gets locked can I point you at some good sources of opinion on both sides? You can then make your own mind up.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/

http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.co.uk/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/author/alex-massie/

www.labourforindy.co.uk

http://nationalcollective.com/blog/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/kevin-mckenna

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/

http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/

http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.co.uk/

Only have phone access at the moment but will read these links with interest tomorrow, cheers.

There have been some good points about our share if gdp versus debt which are interesting. Im still interested in how any oil and gas revenues work as i was under the impression that 95% of fhese resources where in scottish waters. Does this actually count for anything? Oil and gas reserves in the uk are not going to run out in my or my kids life so this must surely be our biggest asset but i have no idea how any revenues are divided up.

[cheezemonkhai]

as you feared this thread has brought out the usual vitoriolic posts from the "jilted lover" school of thought that sadly seems so prevalent among our southern neighbours when we dare to ponder a future without them.

It's simple really.

If your wife says I don't want to be married to you any more and you've both going it alone, then you'd tell her to swing if she asked for money, your car, your house key and for you to keep her security up at your own expense over the next 5-10 years.

It's the same.

We are the UK, we are stronger together.

If you want to be go it alone scotland, then that's your call; but don't expect anything from the neighbours you have rejected the union with.

As for oil... 95% are not in Scottish waters.

Also the Northern Islands don't have to become part of an independent Scotland and a big chuck of the "Scottish Oil" is in that area. What if they want to say part of the UK instead. Then how does unworking sums work?

Look at the MP's... If you give them more power (Independence) they'll just help themselves more.

Edited 27 March, 2013 by cheezemonkhai

[domhnall]

Under international law conventions the percentage under scots law is something closer to 80 per cent if I recall. If the northern Isles pushed for their own independence and got it then the boundaries would mean Norway would get nearly all of the oil.

You'd also have the rather odd situation of the islands being under scots law but being unrepresented in parliament. Unless you did a wholesale introduction of English law (bit of a nightmare for property and all the title deeds etc)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[domhnall]

It's simple really.

If your wife says I don't want to be married to you any more and you've both going it alone, then you'd tell her to swing if she asked for money, your car, your house key and for you to keep her security up at your own expense over the next 5-10 years.

It's the same.

We are the UK, we are stronger together.

If you want to be go it alone scotland, then that's your call; but don't expect anything from the neighbours you have rejected the union with..

That's not quite what's being asked for though is it?

England keeps electing governments formed by minority fringe parties so we get policies no one voted for. So there's a debate about other ways to organise things. If it's a complete split then you work out a fair split of the assets. No one is suggesting either side has to continue contributing to the other.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Ootohere]

The UK Government are getting really desperate now.

ie

'More Powers for Scotland if there is a 'No Vote'.

They made a big mistake sending Ian Duncan Smith to Scotland Yesterday.

The appearance of any like him lost them more 'No' votes than the bribes will ever earn them.

Lets see just how the .Bedroom Tax' changes from Monday, then Universal Credit, Tax Changes

effect support for Conservatives in the whole UK, let alone in Scotland.

george

[mdon]

Weaker? depends how you measure strength. The UK is the 4th most unequal country in the world and heading to be worse. One in 5 kids in Scotland live in poverty and life expectancy in the Labour party heartlands averages out at 54 for men. The status quo is making us pretty weak it seems.

At the moment Scotland is part of the UK and so is a member of the G8 and a major power in the world, judging by you own posts with the pictures showing the amount of MEPs you have, Scotland is a tiny nation with low population and would become a tiny power in the world, it would be as forgotten as other small nation. With the amount of racism shown towards English and other ethnic groups (i have experienced up in northan, upon entering a pub and ordering a drink i was told to "**** off red coat" charming!) your rubbish weather and lack of attractions I doubt you'd get any money from tourism. You have no industry (neither does England admittedly) you wouldn't have a financial market so really your only assets are gas and oil which lets face it, won't last forever!

Also the picture showing you have 59 MPs and the south east have 139 just shows that really Scotland is over represented in parliament already if you devide the number of MPs per head of population.

Personally I like Scotland (south west and Edinburgh anyway) and would hate to see it split up but like others on here I for one can't see it working out too well for you scots if you do leave, but it is your democratic choice and I respect that.

[domhnall]

The UK Government are getting really desperate now.

ie

'More Powers for Scotland if there is a 'No Vote'.

They made a big mistake sending Ian Duncan Smith to Scotland Yesterday.

The appearance of any like him lost them more 'No' votes than the bribes will ever earn them.

Lets see just how the .Bedroom Tax' changes from Monday, then Universal Credit, Tax Changes

effect support for Conservatives in the whole UK, let alone in Scotland.

george

Wee Ruth was an officer cadet in the TA, she was a bit flaky then and she's just as flaky now. Last year the "more powers" issue was an absolute "line in the sand" (her words). Now she expects us to believe that she's devoted to delivering more powers. Ho hum.

The thing I really don't understand is why we've ended up where we are. The Scottish nationalist parties (SNP, Greens SSP etc) I get, they want to be a real country instead of a pretendy one, I get that and the referendum is the obvious way for them to go.

But if the British nationalist parties (SCUP, Labour and LIb Dem) are as devoted to more powers as they claim they are, then why didn't they make it a referendum between independence and more powers. All the polls suggest that this option would win by a landslide and that the status quo is widely agreed to be unsatisfactory. They could have closed this down overnight. The Liberals have been devoted to developing a federal solution since before World War One for goodness sake.

My own theory (conspiracy theory) is that Mr Cameron and Mr Salmond have done a deal. How else do you explain the increasingly cack handed interventions in the debate by the UK Government? First of all they announced George Osborne was running their campaign. Then the PM announced he was off to Edinburgh to "sort the referendum out", then IDS etc etc etc Then there was the video leaked by one of the Sunday papers showing the Tory chairman saying they don't believe in the Union any more but they need to pretend to defend it.

They couldn't really be this useless could they?

[Chorlton]

Apologies if I seemed hostile. The debate up here has been quite toxic with lots of myths and half truths being peddled. For years the media have labeled Scots as "subsidy junkies" and it's an acceptable message in the press to suggest we take more than we give whereas the facts are very much to the contrary. The usual things trotted out are prescription charges and tuition fees. Ths rather misses the point that devolution allows different priorities and policy choices to be made. But these are increasingly being mis represented as English subsidy of ungrateful Scots.

I suspect you just inadvertently touched a nerve.

Thanks.

I only raised those things because the OP was looking for info to help him make a decision not because I think the Scots are subsidy junkies or scroungers. I think the the Scottish approach to those benefits is excellent and I hope whatever governments you get in the future choose to keep it that way. Free university tuition fees are of particular value to anyone from a normal background with kids looking to further their education.

If I had to vote I would be looking long and hard at stuff like that and voting for the system most likely to perpetuate such benefits.

[Ootohere]

#56

and bad Scottish Weather & no tourists made me laugh.

Its just this type of garbage that is the reason people that do not live in Scotland should stay away from the subject.

Currently Moor Fires in parts of Scotland due to Dry Weather for months.

2014, Homecoming Scotland, Commonwealth Games, Ryder Cup, Edinburgh Festival.

Every year Hotel and B&B's full or almost full.

Just pathetic actually listening to some uneducated or plain ignorant stuff that is spouted.

We Hosted the G8 @ Gleneagles, that is where the Ryder Cup is being held in 2014.

Scotland will do just quite well on Tourism i think.

Quite well on weather as well,

Not so many floods here as other UK locations in 2012 if i remember correctly.

& 5 Ski Centres, and several Dry Slope Ski Centres.

Sailing, Fishing, Shooting, Mountains, Cycling, Mountain Biking, Outdoor Sports Capital, or Capitals etc etc.

Industry, well i think you need to Google.

Clyde Blowers, Weir Pumps, Wood Group, Cairn Oil, BP, Shell, Royal Dutch,

Then there is the Lack of skilled Engineers, Welders etc to fill the vacancies here.

Scottish Companies are operating all over the World and supplying Skilled Workers.

University of Abertay Dundee & Computers and Programmers and still so far ahead in

computer skills even without the Games Industry still being based in Dundee.

george

[Chorlton]

Also #56.

No attractions? Are you mad? What about the stunning natural beauty of the country?

[domhnall]

Thanks.

I only raised those things because the OP was looking for info to help him make a decision not because I think the Scots are subsidy junkies or scroungers. I think the the Scottish approach to those benefits is excellent and I hope whatever governments you get in the future choose to keep it that way. Free university tuition fees are of particular value to anyone from a normal background with kids looking to further their education.

If I had to vote I would be looking long and hard at stuff like that and voting for the system most likely to perpetuate such benefits.

what policies are pursued depends on what parties get elected which is a different issue.

Right now though the Parliament controls 85% of all policy, and yet is responsible for raising only 7% of the money to pay for those. It does not encourage responsible government. Prior to 2007 the attitude was just spend spend spend, so we ran a deficit worse than the UK .since 2007 the government is one that's on a mission to prove it can do better and persuade us to hand them responsibility for paying for their policies, so they have been much more prudent and have run a surplus for a number of years and now a deficit much smaller than the UK one.

That's they way it ought to be, the system should hold politicians accountable for their spending.

The system as currently configured is like having a business where the directors have the company cheque book but don't have to think about how they earn the money they're spending. It just doesn't make sense.

Independence isn't the only way to solve this but it does need to be solved. Unfortunately the politicians don't want us to consider any other option for solving it. So the choice is go our own way or maintain the status quo.

[mdon]

Also #56.

No attractions? Are you mad? What about the stunning natural beauty of the country?

There's natural beauty everywhere in every country, perhaps I miss worded it slightly. I meant it isn't a tourist hot spot like other countries where their main source of income is tourism ie in the med.

Edited 28 March, 2013 by mdon

[mdon]

#56

and bad Scottish Weather & no tourists made me laugh.

Its just this type of garbage that is the reason people that do not live in Scotland should stay away from the subject.

Currently Moor Fires in parts of Scotland due to Dry Weather for months.

2014, Homecoming Scotland, Commonwealth Games, Ryder Cup, Edinburgh Festival.

Every year Hotel and B&B's full or almost full.

Just pathetic actually listening to some uneducated or plain ignorant stuff that is spouted.

We Hosted the G8 @ Gleneagles, that is where the Ryder Cup is being held in 2014.

Scotland will do just quite well on Tourism i think.

Quite well on weather as well,

Not so many floods here as other UK locations in 2012 if i remember correctly.

& 5 Ski Centres, and several Dry Slope Ski Centres.

Sailing, Fishing, Shooting, Mountains, Cycling, Mountain Biking, Outdoor Sports Capital, or Capitals etc etc.

Industry, well i think you need to Google.

Clyde Blowers, Weir Pumps, Wood Group, Cairn Oil, BP, Shell, Royal Dutch,

Then there is the Lack of skilled Engineers, Welders etc to fill the vacancies here.

Scottish Companies are operating all over the World and supplying Skilled Workers.

University of Abertay Dundee & Computers and Programmers and still so far ahead in

computer skills even without the Games Industry still being based in Dundee.

george

If that's all true then I hope your yes vote works and you are a prosperous country, I doubt you'll ever make the top financial lists but who knows!

Edited 28 March, 2013 by mdon

[Ootohere]

LOL.

I am a 'No' vote if i voted.

But the South can not keep trying to rob the North.

Those in the South need to get real that they lack Natural Resources or even people with a work Ethic.

Financial Services produces nothing, they just Invest, Hedge or Gamble on people that actually work or produce.

Support Industry, well to Support you need something or someone to support.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21963802

The reason for the UK Governments panic,

They will all be up here today bumping their gums.

Might not last for ever, but if not plundered and greedily robbed to feed the Square Mile or Canary Wharf Wide Boys bonuses

it will do the Country quite well for many decades.

george

[mdon]

LOL.

I am a 'No' vote if i voted.

But the South can not keep trying to rob the North.

Those in the South need to get real that they lack Natural Resources or even people with a work Ethic.

Financial Services produces nothing, they just Invest, Hedge or Gamble on people that actually work or produce.

Support Industry, well to Support you need something or someone to support.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21963802

The reason for the UK Governments panic,

They will all be up here today bumping their gums.

Might not last for ever, but if not plundered and greedily robbed to feed the Square Mile or Canary Wharf Wide Boys bonuses

it will do the Country quite well for many decades.

george

Why are you a no vote? You and domnhall have said Scotland would be better off going it alone, it doesn't make sense to choose to stay in a worse situation.

Edited 28 March, 2013 by mdon

[Ootohere]

You can not find anyplace that i say, Scotland is better going it alone.!!

Never ever said such a thing.

Devo Max or something similar i say.

Because once Alex Salmond Dies the SNP party will fall apart.

They are greedy in fighting buffoons with no knowledge and a dodgy past.

Alex Salmond has the Financial & Economic Background and the Contacts.

But has sold Scotland to China to fund Scotland untill we have enough Money to pay them back.

Alex Salmond knows how Poor the UK is at present.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-11510394

Google '79 Group' & SNP History.

http://www.en.wikipe...g/wiki/79_Group

No idea who can run this Country but not that lot.

ie SNP, Labour, Greens, Lib Dems. in the Scottish Parlaiment

http://www.stewarthosie.com

I would not invest a £1 Lottery Ticket with some of their Financial Brains.

http://www.reformsco...nomicfuture.pdf

george

[domhnall]

"They are greedy in fighting buffoons with no knowledge and a dodgy past"

well that's all politicians nicely summed up, and all Scots are tight, Irish are stupid, English are arrogant, Skoda drivers are all dodgy old geezers with flat caps and pipes.

You don't half love your sweeping generalisations George.

As for your idea that the SNP are all some closet left wing party, I think the opposite is true, it's their right wing that is less well known. One current Minister once apologised to me for being late for a meeting due to the "f***ing trotskyites". I assumed he was talking about the SSP or Solidarity, but no, for him the Lib Dems were the hard left.

If there is independence the SNP will fragment and people will migrate in the main to the left and to the right.

Expect big things from the Scottish tories in particular - relaunched as per the Murdo Fraser plan with a large influx of members from the ex SNP.

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2011/10/why-im-backing-murdo-fraser.html

[Chorlton]

let me help

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-21684684

Ok then, some reworked figures.

Firstly, I have taken the highest 2011 GDP figure of £150bn from here, Ref [1] http://www.scotland..../Browse/Economy, which looks like it includes a good chunk of oil/gas revenue and is the most favourable figure I could find. Obviously the question of oil revenues is a whole other can of worms and I wish the treasury luck in sorting that one out.

Secondly, the two sources for deficit figures provided above are inconsistent so I've used the % figures from the last two paragraphs here, http://www.scotland....ns/2012/03/9525, which are 7.4% and 9.2% of GDP for Scotland and the UK respectively. Remember this is just 2010-2011 deficit, adding to the overall debt mountain.

If Scotland gains indepence then it will leave the union with some share of the UK debt, which has yet to be determined, but for the sake of argument here lets say it's 7.4% to recognise that the Scottish deficit is lower because they have manged their finances better.

So going back to my original figures, UK debt stands at £1 350bn and the Scottish share would be £99.9bn. Therefore, the GDP-to-debt percentage is roughly 66.7%. Or, using the other figures GDP figures from the Ref [1] 80.5% and 78.7%.

These figures are significantly better than my first calculations and make Scotland seem an attractive proposition, but are they correct? Probably not, they are too simplistic but It's certainly made me think about some of the issues involved.

Edited 28 March, 2013 by Chorlton

[Ootohere]

Its near enough to what the SNP party is.

Facts are facts, if you follow the SNP and the Members over the decades its clear to see.

There are some with an Education and good intentions, there are some real Mumpties.

Its good if people have ever had a Job out of Politics and made some money for someone or some business,

before they are entrusted with a countries economy.

http://www.en.wikipe...ki/John_Swinney

http://www.en.wikipe...i/Stewart_Hosie

george

PS, one day we might get an answer to this one.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_MacRae

[Chorlton]

And here is a source for how North Sea Revenue is obtained and 'shared' out.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/9525/6

[domhnall]

Its near enough to what the SNP party is.

Facts are facts, if you follow the SNP and the Members over the decades its clear to see.

There are some with an Education and good intentions, there are some real Mumpties.

george

and that makes them pretty much the same as all other parties, and indeed much the same as the society from which they are drawn.

The more I read your posts George the more I think you'd only ever be happy with some sort of benign dictator figure (as long as he/ she was chosen and approved by you)

As you know my work has involved me in dealing with all parties in England Scotland and Wales. My experience has been that there there are people with a range of abilities in all the parties. You can no more tar politicians with one brush than you can any other walk of life. One Tory MP who is now a Minister was demanding to know when my employer would connect his Norfolk farm with a 1 gigabit circuit. I pointed out that was the same as we used to link Manchester and London - he had not the first idea what he was on about. Nice but very dim. Other Tories I find to be very knowledgeable and good to work with.

My point being you can't easily judge people by labels.

[domhnall]

Its near enough to what the SNP party is.

Facts are facts, if you follow the SNP and the Members over the decades its clear to see.

There are some with an Education and good intentions, there are some real Mumpties.

Its good if people have ever had a Job out of Politics and made some money for someone or some business,

before they are entrusted with a countries economy.

http://www.en.wikipe...ki/John_Swinney

http://www.en.wikipe...i/Stewart_Hosie

george

that is one of the biggest differences we found when we started dealing with the SNP, they had a far larger share of people who had worked for a living in the real world than the other parties.

Salmond - economist

Neil - world bank and economist

Mccaskill - defence & family laywer

Swinney - bean counter

Mather - computing entrepreneur and self made millionaire

Constance - child protection social work etc

Brian Adam - biochemist

Alasdair Allan - journalist and Church of Scotland

Keith Brown - soldier

Willie Coffey - software engineer and developer

the list goes on. The danger as they grow and grow is that they become like the other parties and have career politcians. At thet point they'll stop bucking the trend (fastest growing party in the UK) and follow the mainstream.

[Ootohere]

The SNP does attract some beauts tho.

Like i say,

as long as its not my money they are trusted with.

I will get the link in a moment to the Sex Swap SNP member and Solicitor being jailed

http://www.highbeam....1-77392649.html

So many in the Scottish Legal Profession in Scotland and always some story of intrigue.

I suppose they are watched that Closely by MI5, and then the Dark Arts at play.

http://www.en.wikipe...i/Willie_MacRae

For balance it is not only SNP,

Scotland is full of Crooked Officials.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-13886913

[domhnall]

The SNP does attract some beauts tho.

Like i say,

as long as its not my money they are trusted with.

Lol i will get the link in a moment to the Sex Swap SNP member and Solicitor being jailed

http://www.highbeam....1-77392649.html

So many in the Scottish Legal Profession in Scotland and always some story of intrigue.

I suppose they are watched that Closely by MI5, and then the Dark Arts at play.

http://www.en.wikipe...i/Willie_MacRae

wow you covered all the bases there. A political party member, legal professional, transsexual, ex international rugby player.

Reminds me of an old boss of mine who made an unfortunate remark in a public forum about one legged black lesbians.

I think political parties like the police and the armed forces ought to represent the society from which they are drawn. If that happens to be transsexual ex rugby players with a legal career then so be it. And if they cross the line they feel the full force of the law.

Is there any group we've not discussed yet?

[Ootohere]

I know a Local Councillor that run Football teams, and to get proper support & Sponsorship went over to Ladies Football & they are very successful now.

I actually used to be the One Legged one used on Club 'Sportsmatch' Funding Applications to get assistance for Clubs and Organisations,

I once was invited to launch a new Sailing Boat for the Disabled,

and when i asked why, and because i do not sail,

it turned out i Was a Club Member and was the reason for the Grant being awarded. Honest.

I often used the One Legged Black Lesbian saying back in the 80's when helping get funding

to groups i was involved with.

I think it might be mine to claim.

george