Better Together or Independance?

[domhnall]

What figures are you on about?

To assert that the failed banks represent English losses is absolute and utter nonsense.

just re posted them for ya Chorlton.

Also to repeat, the Americans bailed out the losses incurred in the US of A, the Dutch the debts attributable to ABN Amro and the UK government funded the losses which stemmed from UK operations. Now the divisions which got the bank into trouble weren't the domestic banking bit, but rather the commercial divisions which have been loosely termed "casino banking". BY and large those were based in the US or the City of London.

RBS for example has around 10% of its operations in Scotland. So on what basis do you think Scotland ought to be retrospectively billed for what happened outwith Scotland? (again I would stress this is completely against all the established norms of how this works but lets go with your novel idea just for now)

[domhnall]

it would make both England and Scotland weaker countries.

And what about energy, Scotland would have to supply its own national grid, as England hopefully builds its new nuclear reactors Scotland only has two at the moment which I believe they have no plans to build more.

I don't feel you would see much of a hit in the pocket but you could see free perscriptions and uni go and instead have to pay for them as this would probably be the easiest way to raise money to pay for an independant Scotland.

Also what about people who work in England but live in Scotland and vice versa, would if not create problems for them? I could see it could.

And lastly you say about this may be your only chance as you don't want in 20 years the uk government saying you had your chance and you decided to stay with us, I doubt that would ever happen, if the scots made enough noise there would have to be another referendum, they can't deny you your democratic right.

Weaker? depends how you measure strength. The UK is the 4th most unequal country in the world and heading to be worse. One in 5 kids in Scotland live in poverty and life expectancy in the Labour party heartlands averages out at 54 for men. The status quo is making us pretty weak it seems.

Re prescriptions etc: you're assuming these are paid for by England. They're not, we get less back from the UK than we pay in. Prescription charges were abolished when the NHS realised it was cheaper to give medicine free than to means test it. Scotland has chosen to spend money on medicine, England has chosen to spend money on bureaucrats and medicine.

Energy: we're already not on the national grid, we never have been. We are a net exporter of energy to England. Although BetterTogether have suggested that England might take the hump and stop buying our energy if we vote yes. The suggestion is our energy would become "foreign" so they'd choose to buy French instead. (Yes I can see the problem with that argument too)

People crossing borders to work: This seems to work in lots of places. I have a friend in Scotland who works off the coast of Mexico. I have lots of friends who live here but have to fly down South to work and come home at the weekend. I know Germans who work in the Netherlands. I have friends in Northern Ireland who work in the Republic. I spend a lot of time working in Dublin too. It's never really been a problem, I manage it quite well and lots of others do too. What sort of problems is it you think there might be? Unless Hadrian's Wall is being rebuilt I don't see it.

Re having a chance to revisit this: the PM and others have repeatedly said this is the last chance. They want to sort this out once and for all. Personally I reckon there will be a no vote and then they will act to make sure the Scottish Parliament is brought back into check. Labour have talked openly about handing powers back to London and the smaller parties (mainly the LIb Dems and Tories) would love to see that happen.

[Chorlton]

I'm not sure why there is such hostility to what I have posted. As I asserted in my first post on the subject I had no clude as to what the financial issues might be so I did some quick digging and made a post mainly for the benefit of the OP who was after some information to help him make a decision.

I was composing my post during the time other post came in, so may have missed some information that was available in the thread.

I've still got very little knowledge on the subject, hopefully this will increase as the thread progresses. It seems that the financial experts are already reading and responding to this thread so I'm looking forward to reading their figures and learning something.

[Chorlton]

.......

RBS for example has around 10% of its operations in Scotland. So on what basis do you think Scotland ought to be retrospectively billed for what happened outwith Scotland? (again I would stress this is completely against all the established norms of how this works but lets go with your novel idea just for now)

Because it happened in the UK, and Scotland is part of the UK.

You could make the same fatuous remark about anywhere in the UK. I don't live in London and would like to refuse responsiblity for bailing out banks that are headquatered there. Unfortunately I don't have a choice.

It's a bit like a messy divorce where the ex-wife has run up a massive overdraft on the joint account - unfortunately both parties are liable for the debt.

[domhnall]

Because it happened in the UK, and Scotland is part of the UK.

You could make the same fatuous remark about anywhere in the UK. I don't live in London and would like to refuse responsiblity for bailing out banks that are headquatered there. Unfortunately I don't have a choice.

It's a bit like a messy divorce where the ex-wife has run up a massive overdraft on the joint account - unfortunately both parties are liable for the debt.

As I understand it the proposal is that Scotland would assume a share if UK national debt in line with population. So we have around 8/1% of the population so we would assume 8.1% of the debt. The banks will not be treated any differently.

the bail out happened and was dealt with (mainly by the UK, US and Dutch governments). There is no proposal that Scotland would have to pay money back to the English, US or DUtch governments in the event of independence.

[domhnall]

I'm not sure why there is such hostility to what I have posted.

Apologies if I seemed hostile. The debate up here has been quite toxic with lots of myths and half truths being peddled. For years the media have labeled Scots as "subsidy junkies" and it's an acceptable message in the press to suggest we take more than we give whereas the facts are very much to the contrary. The usual things trotted out are prescription charges and tuition fees. Ths rather misses the point that devolution allows different priorities and policy choices to be made. But these are increasingly being mis represented as English subsidy of ungrateful Scots.

I suspect you just inadvertently touched a nerve.

[whitep]

Let the scots leave... then we can all say i told you so and make them pay dearly when they come crawling back.... Ooh better yet why not join the Euro too....

[domhnall]

Let the scots leave... then we can all say i told you so and make them pay dearly when they come crawling back.... Ooh better yet why not join the Euro too....

there's such a long list of countries that left and then begged to come back, the US, Canada, Australia, Ireland, most of Africa.......

[AlphaPapa]

Its a subject i can't honestly say i know enough about to form a valid opinion.. However personally i think it would be a real shame to split up the UK. The only strong feeling i have about it is if Scotland do decide to go it alone then it has to be a proper split, no half measures. It might be a very crude way of looking at it, but i don't want my taxes subsidising the prescriptions of someone who doesn't want to be part of the UK.

I do live with a Scot from Oban who also has family in Edinburgh and they seem to think its an absolutely insane idea which i guess probably sways my opinion.

I saw someone mention Welsh independence, isn't that a whole other kettle of fish.. do Wales even have any sort of economy that could support itself?

Also, moved it to Roadside for you.

[brownfox]

I live in England and have a flat in the Highlands, at the moment with the Midlothian Question the Scots are subsidised by the English they receive more per head than the English. I agree with the earlier post if independance is granted the free parts will have to go or taxes will have to go up. Alex Salmon is only interested in power for them the Msps themselves. The oil/gas wont last forever then what? no we are stronger together.If Scotland get independance,they should receive no help or subsidy from England at all, thats what independance means. Another problem if you see it as such is they will no longer be in the EU. Lucky them i say.

[Ootohere]

'The Midlothian Question' has nothing to do with the 'Barnett formula', or Devolution as it now is.

Nor has the 'West Lothian Question', for that matter.

'Alex Salmond MSP' is the First Minister of Scotland.

george

[seboni121]

I saw someone mention Welsh independence, isn't that a whole other kettle of fish.. do Wales even have any sort of economy that could support itself?

We can start by charging proper prices for our water :p £2.00 a litre should do it

[littleade]

It's a matter for the Scots alone to decide. Got to admit I've very little knowledge whether it'll be good or bad for Scotland and as I've no vote I'm not going to make any massive effort to find out. If they do decide to become indipendent then in my view it would have to be total, no keeping the £, having their own defence, infrastructure, join the UN, EU (if they're mad!) etc etc- the whole 9 yards. And take their share of the national debt!

Think it's time they decided once and for all.

[mdon]

I saw someone mention Welsh independence, isn't that a whole other kettle of fish.. do Wales even have any sort of economy that could support itself?

We can start by charging proper prices for our water :p £2.00 a litre should do it

Fire away, Lake District water is far superior anyway! Ha ha.

[seboni121]

Fire away, Lake District water is far superior anyway! Ha ha.

Ah but the Lake District is 70% welsh and 30% scotch :p and it can't get any better than dwr Cymru as it comes Down mountains not hills

[domhnall]

I live in England and have a flat in the Highlands, at the moment with the Midlothian Question the Scots are subsidised by the English they receive more per head than the English. I agree with the earlier post if independance is granted the free parts will have to go or taxes will have to go up. Alex Salmon is only interested in power for them the Msps themselves. The oil/gas wont last forever then what? no we are stronger together.If Scotland get independance,they should receive no help or subsidy from England at all, thats what independance means. Another problem if you see it as such is they will no longer be in the EU. Lucky them i say.

Ffs even David Cameron has stopped spouting the daily mail subsidy lies.

This is how it works. We hand over all the money raised to the UK government and then they give us back an allowance which is less than we handed over. So we're not being subsidised. Spend per head of population is higher in London, northern Ireland and the north east of England than in Scotland. But you can't use spend per head to determine subsidy as it ignores where the revenue is raised.

Since Scotland contributes more than it receives it us hard to suggest it is subsidised. As for free prescriptions, again free prescriptions cost the taxpayer the same as means tested ones, but you spend all the money on medicine rather than bureaucrats. If the English nhs wants to prioritise spend on paperwork that's their choice but let's not slag off the scottish nhs for doing things differently. Personall I prefer to see my tax being spent on things that help patients but if the government in England want to spend the money on red tape rather than medicine then I respect their right to do so. It would be nice if our English neighbours returned the compliment instead of getting on their high horses and spouting the same old lies that they are the only ones who contribute to the running of the UK.

I pay about £4k a month in tax and NI so it really hacks me off when the arrogance of some people surfaces and assumes English = pays tax, Scottish = scrounging git.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[cheezemonkhai]

If you go you dont get the military equipment, nukes move to england or wales, all civil servents are moved to northern england.

You cant use the pound and require a visa for travel.

Not a penny should go to help them without handsome interest charges.

They want to use the uk military... there is an anual charge for defence. Attack won't happen on scotlands wishes.

If they want out... it is 100% total out and instant without a taper.

[gadgetman]

Ship out any Scottish mp's from Westminster as well. We can't have a say in Scotland.

[Ootohere]

You do actually have a say in Scotland, there is a Scottish Government in Scotland,

then the Westminster Government has the 'Scotland Office' in Scotland.

A MP that is the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Michael Moore MP, a Lib Dem.

All the Civil Servants that goes with that set up.

https://www.gov.uk/g...scotland-office

There is such a lack of knowledge on Scottish Affairs from some here that its unbelievable.

george

[domhnall]

If you go you dont get the military equipment, nukes move to england or wales, all civil servents are moved to northern england.

You cant use the pound and require a visa for travel.

Not a penny should go to help them without handsome interest charges.

They want to use the uk military... there is an anual charge for defence. Attack won't happen on scotlands wishes.

If they want out... it is 100% total out and instant without a taper.

so having paid for the military equipment in part (and any other assets) we get none of it. This is like saying if you and your wife (or other form of partner, can't be discriminatory), jointly buy a house and furnish it etc, you then hit a sticky patch and they say they want to split up you say "OK leave me, but you're not having any of the joint possessions, you can leave everything and just get out, you're on your own".

1) that wouldn't stand up

2) you'd sound very slightly petulant and childish.

I'm sure that's not a realistic course of option (though some politicians have sounded more or less the childish recently).

As for the pound, you can't stop any country choosing any tradeable currency it likes. So countries that aren't in the Eurozone currently use the Euro and there's not a damn thing the EU can do about it, others use the dollar, again Washington can't stop them.

And visas, well other than being spiteful and childish why would you want to do that? You can't have visas between EU member states but I'm not sure the UK is planning to hang around in the EU much longer anyway so let's not go there.

[AlphaPapa]

There is such a lack of knowledge on Scottish Affairs from some here that its unbelievable.

Thats because you Scots confused everything with your fancy pants government. Just surrender yourself to Westminster like the rest of us poor suffering souls have to! :p

[domhnall]

PS I think you're welcome to the nukes, you can't afford them, neither can we and the MOD reckons they're too dangerous to be near civilians (OK to site them outside Glasgow for the last 50 years though)

Jockdooshbag

as you feared this thread has brought out the usual vitoriolic posts from the "jilted lover" school of thought that sadly seems so prevalent among our southern neighbours when we dare to ponder a future without them.

Before this gets locked can I point you at some good sources of opinion on both sides? You can then make your own mind up.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/

http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.co.uk/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/author/alex-massie/

www.labourforindy.co.uk

http://nationalcollective.com/blog/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/kevin-mckenna

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/

http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/

http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.co.uk/

Edited 27 March, 2013 by domhnall

[Ootohere]

Scotland has one Conservative MP and he gets made 'Under Secretary of Scotland' by David Cameron.

We get rid of a Lib Dem Leader who was a MSP in the Scottish Parliament, and Deputy First Minister in a Labour Lib Dem coalition,

he gets made a Lord and gets dumped back on us.

By David Cameron.

You do wonder why the Westminister Government is fighting so hard to keep Scotland & its wealth,

is it just to keep calling it the United KIngdom

Especially when so many non Scots seem to want shot of Scotland because they think we leach off of them..

george

[domhnall]

George, go watch this, you'll like it. BetterTOgether tried to ban it but that just caused it to spread. Enjoy!

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/

[slider]

If you go you dont get the military equipment, nukes move to england or wales, all civil servents are moved to northern england.

You cant use the pound and require a visa for travel.

Not a penny should go to help them without handsome interest charges.

They want to use the uk military... there is an anual charge for defence. Attack won't happen on scotlands wishes.

If they want out... it is 100% total out and instant without a taper.

What a load of Daily Mail tosh. I don't support independent but I really object to people continuing to spout drivel that has been proved wrong many times over.

Why will Scotland not get a share of the military that it has contributed to? (but you are welcome to the nukes)

Civil servants would be shared by use, we probably have less than our fair share anyway as Westminster Govt's like to "centralise" things in the South East. Many devolved department already bill each other where shared services are based in one country.

Why cant we continue to use the pound - there are plenty of examples of link currencies in the World

Why on earth would you need a Visa - an example is the freedom of travel in the Scandinavian countries.

IF we decide to leave, it will be total and will involve Scotland taking it's share of debt and assets