Better Together or Independance?

[Clunkclick]

It would be a nice thing to see these politicians, on an issue as important as this, actually address  a real cross section of the electorate, instead of these press-ganged assemblies held in commercial premises -. Says it all about the remote control robots from Davos.

 

Scottish Widows - FFS, somebody is really taking the ****.

 

I notice Dave was using the TB method of cosy presentation today - the halting soeech bit (Artifically injected Ums and Arrs) and the Thunderbird hand movements - on Doctors orders, Spin doctors orders.

 

It is insulting to any body with half  a cerebrum.

 

Personally, I'd rather not have some "Empty vessel" product of a spin doctor's brow running the country. As it stands at the moment, our leaders seem to be trained not to have any common sense, to take any risk or act on their own initiative. They seem to rely entirely on the junior scribblers behind the scenes. If the PR fellow were to tell them that doing a Captain Blackadder would swing it, I'm sure you'd see 'em in public with underpants on the head and two pencils up the nose.

 

The division of labour in politics has gone too far - get rid of the spin doctors and the special advisors - they are the responsible for 50% of the disconnect.

 

For god sake say "Yes" if only to start the ball rolling to enable all in the UK to get rid of this phoney ersatz politics.

 

Nick

Edited 10 September, 2014 by Clunkclick

[fabdavrav]

I really loved the Local Yes Scotsman that was interview on reporting Scotland at 7ish.........mid thirties, beard, blue yes shirt deep frown & ............basically shouting & looking like he was going to head butt the camera man & he was shouting "we are a peaceful nation" .then something about trident then something about the English before it cut away.....................

 

 

Irony eh?.................

[Paul007]

Slightly OT, how many of the BBC are up there ? It only needs a handful.  I counted at least 7 people not including sound and camera crew being involved in one two minute report. No wonder the Beeb has nae brass.

[tweenster]

I must confess that I've not really taken that much interest in the whole independence thing, despite Mrs T being from north of the border. However, the recent flurry of activity following the news that the Yes campaign had edged ahead in one poll sparked my interest and I've spent the last few days reading lots of articles and opinions about it, both for and against. 

 

However (isn't there always one?), I have been unable to find a single document that shows how an independent Scotland will balance the books; I would be extremely grateful if someone is able to link one for me.  Thanks.

[Clunkclick]

I really loved the Local Yes Scotsman that was interview on reporting Scotland at 7ish.........mid thirties, beard, blue yes shirt deep frown & ............basically shouting & looking like he was going to head butt the camera man & he was shouting "we are a peaceful nation" .then something about trident then something about the English before it cut away.....................

 

 

Irony eh?.................

Bless ! They should go round suppressing some of their national characteristics -  Surely no worse than "The Englander" or "Roost Boeuf" comments you get  when you pitch-up on the average continental campsite.

Edited 10 September, 2014 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

I must confess that I've not really taken that much interest in the whole independence thing, despite Mrs T being from north of the border. However, the recent flurry of activity following the news that the Yes campaign had edged ahead in one poll sparked my interest and I've spent the last few days reading lots of articles and opinions about it, both for and against. 

 

However (isn't there always one?), I have been unable to find a single document that shows how an independent Scotland will balance the books; I would be extremely grateful if someone is able to link one for me.  Thanks.

I'm sure that if that ammunition were available to the No s they would have published it by now. Perhaps they don't want to do that because the existing UK National Accounts, although signed-off, wont stand-up to too much scrutiny.

 

If it did go pear shaped would the remainder of the UK  do a Rotherham ? A failed state on your doorstep, with minimal border controls ?. They could always use bitcoins.

 

N

Edited 10 September, 2014 by Clunkclick

[tweenster]

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I'm not after any 'ammunition' just a (relatively) simple policy statement, ideally from the SNP, about where the money is coming from and where it is going to be spent; surely it must exist?

[jlwah]

I'm sure that if that ammunition were available to the No s they would have published it by now. Perhaps they don't want to do that because the existing UK National Accounts, although signed-off, wont stand-up to too much scrutiny.

 

If it did go pear shaped would the remainder of the UK  do a Rotherham ? A failed state on your doorstep, with minimal border controls ?. They could always use bitcoins.

 

N

That's the reason the Westminster parties said no to a currency union. They don't want iScotland borrowing money willy nilly to pay for all their un-costed government giveaways dragging the pound down for the rest of us.

[tweenster]

After a bit of searching I found this; "Putting the Independence White Paper into the Fiscal Context", a briefing note from the Institute of Fiscal Studies:

 

http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/bn149.pdf

 

I found this interesting (but have no idea if the IFS is an independent organisation) but it seems to conclude that an independent Scotland will not be significantly different to the current UK, in that it will require cuts to public services or benefits or increased taxes to address their deficit. Also, reading Salmond's comments about the Scottish share of the UK deficit seems to suggest that an independent Scotland will refuse to pay it; unfortunately this is likely to result in a very low credit rating resulting in expensive borrowing. 

 

I can certainly understand the Scottish ambition for independence but have yet to see any evidence that it is viable. As I said in my earlier post, I've come late to this discussion so am happy to be signposted to relevant material.

[gadgetman]

And that's the nail firmly on the head.

The white paper sets out a lovely picture, but almost none of it is anything else other than maybe's and might be's.

[vindaloo]

Ummmm, you can have independence only after you've paid your dues then... i.e. until some arrangement is made or UK itself pays off its debt.

[domhnall]

The IFS is a right wing think tank that believes in shrinking the public sector and removal of government from areas it has no place doing what the private sector could. Health, post, education etc etc

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[domhnall]

The proposal is that Scotland should pay its share of debt (including things like crossrail, the London mega sewer, London Olympics etc ). The only time it was suggested otherwise was in discussion of what would happen if the UK insisted on sharing liabilities but keeping the assets.

I'm actually more worried about Scotland being tied to the future spending commitments of UK governments. They've got serious form in this regard, racking up some of the highest debts in the world and a worsening trade deficit as borrowing grows to fuel another bubble.

I'm not sure why the snp want to continue exposing us to continued English profligacy on major and expensive vanity projects.

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[Ootohere]

The future income and spending was clearly explained.

 

Oil & Gas is less than half of Scotland Exports, the Food & Beverages & other exports play a huge part.

The savings in the main was from not Paying for the replacement of Trident, and other schemes that are a drain on the whole of the UK not only Scotland.

 

The main difference on the new Income and Spending on was getting rid of not fit for Purpose Executive Agencies,

& continue as Scotland has been doing in the past 7 years.

Getting Value for Money by providing Efficient Services, getting people back into work, because there is an expending job market,

& child care is a major issue.

 

So there was to be no real Major changes, other than Scotland controlling its own income and Taxes and Duties, and as it does now,

budget what is spent.

The Difference from now is that Westminster decides how much of the money sent to Westminster returns to Scotland,

and they then say how much is paid out in things not Devolved to Scotland.

 

As is always the case, Scotland with a population still below 6 Million has the resources, exports and income to Budget for and run a successful 

country.

 

Scotland is not Subsidised by roUK.  

But the Banks and Bankers are, and no wonder the Financial Institutions that are being propped up now by the UK, and Quantitive Easing

are wanting the UK to stay together. 

Nothing to do with Scotland and the Risks, Scotland can back the Actual money the banks hold or lend.

The money is not really there, or the Gold,  It is Pyramid Banking.

 

**' Lender of last resort ', Yes the Bank of England & UK PLC is part owner and should be the full owner, 

THE UK TAX PAYERS CURRENTLY KEEP THE BANKS AFLOAT, WHILE PAYING MORE THAN THEY SHOULD TO DO IT.

Selling Bad Debt, Trading in Bad Debts, Making Losses and Earning Bonuses, Mis-Selling, and Setting aside Billions to repay,

With the Tax Payers Money, Fine the Banks, and pay the fines with Savers & Tax Payers money.

The Public are Mental and Stupid to listen to Bankers,

& to let your Elected Politicians Behave in this way.

Prosecute those that Defrauded and Stole, and Seize their Property & Proceeds of Crime. 

Then Bankers and Hedge Funds and Speculators / Traders might take things more seriously.""

 

 

As to the Oil Magnets and Industry Experts and the big 5 Oil Producers, the UK is seeing them OK as it is now.

Each Budget time they complain, they say Profits are down.

They are selling the Rigs that are Death Traps to Smaller Companied they own that operate them, and save on Taxes,

& where they build new ones inother World Regions, the UK loses out on those jobs and taxes.

 

Big Money is worried,  (the ones that are at it, that is.)

because the UK Scratches their backs, and the Conservatives, Labour & Lib Dems get the Politicians & Parties well looked after.

The UK Governments and the Treasury is Corrupt, and the whole of the UK pays to give them and all their associates a very comfortable life.

Edited 11 September, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[trundlenut]

The proposal is that Scotland should pay its share of debt (including things like crossrail, the London mega sewer, London Olympics etc ). The only time it was suggested otherwise was in discussion of what would happen if the UK insisted on sharing liabilities but keeping the assets.

I'm actually more worried about Scotland being tied to the future spending commitments of UK governments. They've got serious form in this regard, racking up some of the highest debts in the world and a worsening trade deficit as borrowing grows to fuel another bubble.

I'm not sure why the snp want to continue exposing us to continued English profligacy on major and expensive vanity projects.

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The super sewer is being paid for by Thames water customers and finance not the government.

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[gadgetman]

And Scottish tourism benefited from the Olympics as did the UK as a whole.

I'm sure the whole of the UK likely paid towards the commonwealth games as well.

[gadgetman]

The first Scottish company has nailed it's intentions to the mast.

Hardly a surprise but the others also affected by market losses as the pound fell Monday are also said to be prepared to make similar statements soon

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29151798

[Ootohere]

The Banks know who the Friendly Government is,

the one that props it up, and allows it to profit from making loses.

Its no surprise that banks do not want the Fraudulent Trading Exposed and opening up to the auditing.

The UK Government are their Best Friends.

If they were Real Businesses, they would be in Receivership.  

Only the UK Government via the BOE keep them in Business.

But as long as the General Public can not see that, they Pay the Piper, and the Piper picks their pockets,

things will continue as they do now.

 

Other than Domestic Banking, 

Investment Banking requires ups and downs in Markets, that is how they Trade.

They are supposed to Invest money in Commerce & Industry, and make profits, but Currency Fluctuations mean you buy cheap and sell high,

& if money only ever goes up in value, then where is there money to be made if people are not losing there money.

You are supposed to pay taxes on Profits,

But Banks take out Overheads & Dividends and then Post Losses.

It is Pyramid Banking, just Numbers, and creaming off the Top, and watering down the Milk that is left.

 

........................................................................

Scotland is full of Tourists every year.  

The figures are clearly audited annually.

 

Please go and show us where there was an increase in Hotel Occupations or Tourist numbers in Scotland in 2012 that is to do with the Olympics being held,

or a knock on in 2013 .

 

I can show you the Events Scotland held & where there was increased tourism,  and what it cost per capita to put funding in for that.

 

http://scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/04/2711/11

 

It is Time the National Lottery Fund was repaid what it put into the Olympics, since it was such an earner.

9 - 10 bn or so to the UK Economy.

Edited 11 September, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[jlwah]

If Scottish companies become domiciled in the rUK then Scotland loses their corporation taxes and their impact on GDP. So Scotland shrinks as an economy.

 

Interesting also that for the first time in nearly 3 years the price of oil dropped below the $100/b price on Monday (coinciding with independence vote overtaking better together in the polls). The price is now below the price at which it was predicted to fall in 2018/19 ($99/b). The volatility of oil prices (take a look at the period June 2008 to Feb 2009 - $138.73 to $41.83 in 8 months) will have a significant impact on Scotland's economy and Salmons predictions.

 

I'm still hopeful of a yes vote, but with more and more companies announcing that they'll hot foot it over the border if there is a vote for independence, it's starting to look increasingly unlikely, as relocation could well impact on Scottish jobs.

 

For those of you who have read the White paper in depth, what predictions does Salmons lot make for corporate relocations? He surely can't have ignored that possibility as it's a bit obvious, especially for the financial institutions, so I'm sure he's costed that in.

[Ootohere]

The World Price of Texas Crude drops because of Over Production. 

 

Coinciding or Coincidence or Manipulation,  who knows.

 

??

When was World Oil Prices Dropping the concern of the Customer and the Public that want the Pump Price and Heating Bills down,

and have never cared about Corporation Profits and Governments Duties and revenues.?

 

Now clearly there are Companies and Corporations that are going to leave Scotland.

 

But Scotland has the Resources, the Exports and the Workforce, and the Experienced Management.

Whisky is not Leaving Scotland, well not until Duty is Paid,

& that is the big loss to the UK Treasury, & the Export and Revenue least talked about.

There are Corporations and Companies that are coming into Scotland and Investing,

because it is Scotland, and it is where it is, with the Work Force and resourses it has.

 

Production Costs of Distilling is in Pence (Sterling) and the Duty per bottle is in Pounds (Sterling)

 

Now if anyone wants to look at Basic Economics, they will see that the Cost of Oil, Exploration , Extraction & Transportation & Refining 

is Greater than the Value of the Oil.

But Oil is an Essential & Keeps the World going around, keeps the Governments in power, and Funds and Causes the Wars.

 

Alcohol Commercial & for Human Consumption, is always Profit, and then costs to the Health Services.

But more Profitable than Oil.

 

Westminster loves the Duty from Distilling and Alcohol, and they are always trying to increase what the Treasury gets.

The total loss of that Revenue to the UK Treasury will be massive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20946409

Edited 11 September, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[Scribbler]

I know its a way off yet but has anyone contemplated the domain suffix that Scotland will use. They obviously wont be able to use .co.uk anymore so if its .sc or .so etc.

then it raises an interesting point. We have quite a few suppliers and customers north of the border. These were originally found by typing in google for example:

 

"item of interest" + uk. This then streamlines the search results to companies within the uk as we don't export to the rest of the world and we try to use only UK products where possible.

 

I should imagine many other individuals and companies use a similar process to locate goods and services. Therefor if Scotland do become independent from 2016 we wont be trading with them and I think many others will be in the same boat. This isn't to say we would deliberately go our of our way not to trade but anything that adds complexity will reduce the chances of Scottish companies getting our business. There are always English versions of the Scottish companies we use so we would just switch to them.

[trundlenut]

I love the suggestion that simultaneously governments are incapable of performing the simplest of tasks yet can just rattle off a global conspiracy requiring the absolute commitment of thousands or millions of disparate people and organisations.

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[Ootohere]

BP was British Owned,  the Peer & Chairman of the Ex British Company that resigned in disgrace, just for the cover up, not the deed,

is the Chairman of the Fracking Company with the Licences from 

the UK Government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browne,_Baron_Browne_of_Madingley

** 

Maybe look at Lord John Browne's 'Current Activities',   Close to the UK Government and is he really that detached from BP? **

 

The UK Chancellors Father in Law (& also a Peer of the Realm) is the man that can, and says what they can in the other Major Oil Corporation,

& also the Fracking Fan Boy.

 

Now if you want to look at 'The 3 Sisters', or the 'Secret of the 7 Sisters' as it is now, you will see how Oil worked and still works.

It is a Conspiracy, because it is still all a Cartel.

& BP had some very bad news last week, 

nothing to do with Scotland though, it was the US that made them assume the Position for their past Error from Short Cuts and Chasing the 

Profits, and Cutting Corners.

Edited 11 September, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[domhnall]

And Scottish tourism benefited from the Olympics as did the UK as a whole.

I'm sure the whole of the UK likely paid towards the commonwealth games as well.

 

actually that's the opposite of the truth. The Edinburgh fesitvals had a bad year, hotel bookings were down. The London Olympics was bad for tourism in Scotland (and wasn't that great for London from what I remember, it hadn't been that quiet for years)

 

2013 saw tourism bosses reporting a recovery from 2012 back to 2011 levels

[mdon]

oil and gas for Scotland keeps getting mentioned, what would happen/what impact would their be if the UK decided to keep that asset?