Starter Motor Woes, Again!

[Silverline]

ladies and Gents,

I know I am now becoming a bore but I still have a problem with the starter motor on my 04 Octavia TD.

Earlier this year the starter developed a fault, I can only describe is as making a whirring noise but not actually turning the engine over. I took the car to a local garage with a decent reputation and they removed the motor and from what I can make out it went to a local rebuilder, to be honest I,m not sure if I got the same motor back or a replacement as long as it worked properly I wasn't really bothered. All went well for about three weeks then exactly the same thing happened again so the car was returned.

When I collected the car I was informed that they had the chap over who does the re-builds I was under the impression he wanted to look at the teeth on the starter ring but when I asked about that nothing was mentioned, as far as I can remember anyway to cut a long story short another starter was fitted but the same thing occurred then they did some research. maybe even this site, I don't exactly know but they decided to fault was the fuel filter they changed it and apparently all was well.

From memory the conversation went something like; the fuel filter was faulty semi-blocked? and this was resulting in the cars electronics disabling the starter, to be frank I did not entirely buy this because as far as I am concerned, not that I, am any expert, the starter motor was turning but not engaging, I would have assumed that if there is such a feature than disables the starter then surely there would be total silence?

Anyway all has been well until today when I decided to have a new battery fitted, as the old one was nine years old and after it had been fitted I was called over and informed the starter was causing problems, it did start after a few attempts but clearly the old problem had returned.

So, what exactly is happening, have I another duff starter, its been on the car over a month and been fine, or is there some truth in this fuel filter theory?

If as I assume, since I can hear a "wizzing" sound the motor is turning but not always pre-engaging is this likely to cause any wear on the starter ring and /or to the motor?

Finally id the fuel filter could be the problem then what's wrong, it was replaced and if there is a problem with the fuel side would it be detected by a diagnostic check?

Thanks in advance.

[pauldazzle]

Fuel filter stopping the starter from working!!!! Bit early for April fools I think.

[midgebuster]

Got the same issue, starter tries to catch for a second, then spins without turning the engine over. Worked fine last night, and then this morning it plays up! Changed the starter today, nice easy job but to no effect, so really interested in hearing what people suggest, as I'm assuming it's something major

[mbames]

Is all the cabling ok? Crimp joints all sound and clean?

[rwbaldwin]

Got the same issue, starter tries to catch for a second, then spins without turning the engine over. Worked fine last night, and then this morning it plays up! Changed the starter today, nice easy job but to no effect, so really interested in hearing what people suggest, as I'm assuming it's something major

If the starter turns the engine for a split second and then 'spins away', then there's a good chance part of the flywheel crown gear (the part the starter motor drive pinion engages with) is missing.

[pauldazzle]

Agreed sounds like missing teeth on the flywheel.

[midgebuster]

In which case, I might try moving the engine round by pushing it in gear and try again, as previous starting hasn't been an issue so I'm guessing not all of the ring gear will be knackered. Will let you know if this works, as I'd rather know what is wrong, so I can plan to get it sorted

Thanks for the help

[Guest BigJase88]

Yup agree with the teeth off flywheel possibly

[littleade]

Sounds possible as the engine normally stops in just a few places on the various compression strokes so will probably start cranking over on the same few places on the starter ring. if it is the ring you might look to get the clutch done too if it's worn. It's a similar thing with cambelts too

[midgebuster]

Do you think the cambelt has gone? Or do you mean it is like when you change the cambelt you change other stuff at the same time? Will be surprised and equally gutted if it is the cam belt!

[pauldazzle]

I think what he was getting at is that you may as well do the clutch & DMF at the same time.

Edited 29 March, 2013 by pauldazzle

[littleade]

Do you think the cambelt has gone? Or do you mean it is like when you change the cambelt you change other stuff at the same time? Will be surprised and equally gutted if it is the cam belt!

Sorry to confuse. As Paul says I was not suggesting you get the cambelt done as well, just that they wear in the same place like your starter ring might have done. As he says if it is the starter ring you'll have to get the gearbox off so while it's off it's a good idea to check the clutch and as P suggests the DMF too in case they're on the way out.

hope this helps

[imperial21]

When the problem happens, You could rock the car backwards and forwards with the car in gear which would then turn the engine a little so you could then try starting the car with the flywheel in a different position, Dont forget to take back out of gear !!! At least thats one way of testing to see if the flywheel is worn in places.

You could also take the starter motor and get a assistant to turn the engine over by hand and you could look for damaged missing teeth.

[Silverline]

The problem with my car is that if I wait it will eventually start, added to that why and how how would the starter ring loose teeth? It was fine one moment then suddenly I have this odd problem.

Another point is from what I remember of the conversation , we did have a long conversation and its possible I miss understood what he said but from memory was when they fitted the second motor when it was making that odd noise the crank was turning! They seemed to be implying that fuel line/filter was the problem and presumably the electronics were deliberately disabling part of the engine!

Another interesting point is that it only seems to happen when the engine is warm ie stopped for a relatively shortish time, if it is stone cold like the it was with the two starts today, it is fine.

Edited 30 March, 2013 by Silverline

[Silverline]

Got the same issue, starter tries to catch for a second, then spins without turning the engine over. Worked fine last night, and then this morning it plays up! Changed the starter today, nice easy job but to no effect, so really interested in hearing what people suggest, as I'm assuming it's something major

I will be really interested in what you find.

[rwbaldwin]

@Silverline - what engine code do you have.

If your car doesn't even start to rotate then engine, it could be a bad starter solenoid, low battery voltage, poor solenoid contact or a number of other things.

[Silverline]

@Silverline - what engine code do you have.

If your car doesn't even start to rotate then engine, it could be a bad starter solenoid, low battery voltage, poor solenoid contact or a number of other things.

Hello,

I don't have a fault code to quote, presumably I would need a main dealer for that info? The last time it happened and this was after 5 or more weeks of everything being fine, was when it was first started after a new battery was fitted. The other battery was ok but at 9 years old I decided to treat the car to a new one. I am considering asking a main dealer to hook it up to check for any problem codes. Since the last "bad " start the others about six have been fine.

[rwbaldwin]

...I don't have a fault code to quote...

I'm not after a fault code - I'm after the engine code - all you state is an '04 Octavia TD'. On the options label (under the carpet in the boot or stuck in the owners manual) there should be a 3-character engine code. My guess is it's an ASV.

[Silverline]

I'm not after a fault code - I'm after the engine code - all you state is an '04 Octavia TD'. On the options label (under the carpet in the boot or stuck in the owners manual) there should be a 3-character engine code. My guess is it's an ASV.

Sorry, I will check tomorrow when it's light, all I can say is its the 1.9TD 90bhp version.

[rwbaldwin]

Sorry, I will check tomorrow when it's light, all I can say is its the 1.9TD 90bhp version.

In that case, it's probably an ALH or AGR

[Silverline]

In that case, it's probably an ALH or AGR

Can confirm, ALH

[Epicyclic]

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, my 110tdi '02 did exactly the same.

I stopped at traffic lights and stopped the engine to clear the coolant level fault (new bottle soon), and the starter wouldn't 'bite' the flywheel- just spun freely. I gave it about 4 tries, each time it nudged the flywheel slightly but instantly disengaged, 5th time it turned the engine as normal.

It hasn't done it since- I initially put it down to moisture in the starter or similar as it was very cold that morning, but now I read this thread, we shall see…

[Silverline]

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, my 110tdi '02 did exactly the same.

I stopped at traffic lights and stopped the engine to clear the coolant level fault (new bottle soon), and the starter wouldn't 'bite' the flywheel- just spun freely. I gave it about 4 tries, each time it nudged the flywheel slightly but instantly disengaged, 5th time it turned the engine as normal.

It hasn't done it since- I initially put it down to moisture in the starter or similar as it was very cold that morning, but now I read this thread, we shall see…

I'm probably pushing my luck now but it has not happened since last Friday after the new battery was fitted, not that I am saying that has anything to do with it. I have noticed over the period that it has happened with three different motors, or at least two as I suspect the second motor was the first cleaned up, that the problem does not seem to occur when the engine is stone cold.

This morning after a bitterly cold night it took three attempts to fire the engine up and each time the starter fully engaged and it went on later to do a warm start without problems.

[Silverline]

Another point , the theory about damaged teeth on the starter ring is a sound one but surely if that was the problem its only happened once since the last motor change some 42 days ago. I would have thought the odds against not hitting the chipped teeth would be far higher than that, although I admit the car can go for days without being used.........just a thought!

[rwbaldwin]

Can confirm, ALH

There is no lift pump in the tank and no fuel pump relay.

A common cause for this problem on this car, is air getting into the fuel lines. This allows fuel to drain back to the tank. Check all the connections at the fuel filter. Make sure the fuel filter valve is the right way around and hasn't lost its o-ring. Use proper fuel hose clips - not worm drive clips as they seal poorly at small diameters.

You can check that fuel is getting to the injectors by loosening injector 3 union nut, wrapping it with a rag and cranking the engine. You should see fuel straight away.

Check the flap in the EGR housing fully opens again after you shut the engine off.

If the starter is truly not engaging and you have tested for missing teeth on the crown ring, then check both voltages at the starter solenoid - the main starter motor supply and the solenoid control/input voltage.