Oil Test Results

[Jabozuma]

Hi All,

Finanly I managed to get some time to post it all here.

I wrote about wanting to get my Fabia vRS MK2 oil tested to see what's going on inside. I did that when car done 5000 miles. I dropped hot oil and replaced with 3.6 liters of Castrol Edge Professional 5W-30 LongLife III and new original VAG oil filter. I took roughly 100ml sample, packaged it and sent to

Oil Check Laboratory Services Ltd.

Denison House,

Hexthorpe Road, Doncaster,

South Yorkshire,

DN4 0BF

Laboratory:01302 329609

Mobile: 07773 035653

Fax: 05601 538047

Websites: http://www.oil-check.com

http://www.oil-analysis.org

I got this in return

Check the commentary at the bottom of the page

Thenbeing my curious self I decided to annoy good fellows at OCLS with a barrage of questions, see below. My questions in Black, Dave's answers in blue.

Dave,

Thank you for sending me the results. It is good that the oil looks fairly OK.

I have a few questions though. It is to do with fuel content and oil viscosity. I was expecting fuel content figure, which was one of the reasons for having the oil tested in the first place. This is due to the tendency of this 1.4 VAG twincharger to use oil and letting petrol through the rings. I was trying to get this confirmed one way or the other. Also, could this be the result of lower viscosity i.e. oil dilution with petrol?

In your commentary you mentioned that factory oil fill is different to normal Castrol?

Thank you for your time

Regards,

I will try to run through a few things with you.

Re Oil viscosity:

You stated that you had been topping up with Castrol Edge and that you did not know what oil was in the car prior to this.

The viscosity of the Castrol Edge oil is 70 Cst @ 40°C. The viscosity of the current oil in the car, after the addition of Castrol Edge is 57.2 Cst @ 40°C.

If we knew what the viscosity of the oil was before the addition of the Castrol Edge Oil we could assess the impact of the lower viscosity now with more certainty. As we don’t know the Viscosity we can only speculate that it was considerably lower than the oil that you have been using, and as a consequence, has lowered the viscosity of the oil overall.

Or, assuming the original factory fill oil was at a viscosity comparable to the oil you have been using, then yes, petrol presence in the oil could be affecting the viscosity.

The problem with petrol engines and petrol presence in engine oil is the fact that the determination of the petrol content is a very specialised analysis and is outside of the scope of what most laboratories can perform.

Fuel dilution in oil samples is limited to diesel engine oils. The reason for this is that a test is cried out called a Flash Point, to determine fuel presence.

Basically a series of standards are created using varying quantities of diesel fuel mixed with engine oil. The samples are heated and exposed to a naked flame, under controlled conditions until a minimum temperature is reached at which the oil shows ignition.

All of the results are plotted on a graph and then the ‘unknown’ samples are tested in the same way. When a temperature of ignition is reached, the quantity of fuel in the sample is read off from the graph.

This is fine for diesel engine vehicles. However, this cannot be carried out on petrol engine oil, as the extremely low flash point of petrol makes the test unusable, in so much as a minute quantity of petrol would cause ignition of the sample at room temperature and below. Virtually all petrol engine samples would fail such a test and yet would not be a problem, as I said in the report, as all petrol engine oils run with a certain amount of petrol in them, without any issues.

To ascertain if fuel leakage is an issue here, you would need to monitor the viscosity of the oil over a period of time to see the extent of any viscosity decreases. You should approach the dealer with your concerns as they should be able to tell you what acceptable fuel presence and viscosity levels your vehicle should be running at.

If you need to discuss this further you need to talk to the laboratory manager, Mike Volante. He is out of the country at the moment, but is back on Thurs 9^th May.

hope this information has been helpful to you.

Dave

I will try to send you another sample, probably around November time when I am planning on another oil change. At least this time the original oil will be a known quantity and results could be gauged more meaningfully. Another simple test is "making oil" test to tell me if I have a serious problem with blow by sump oil fuel contamination. If the level on the dipstick increases then my motor is in deep trouble!I will be using your test results on the biggest Skoda owners internet forum as there is huge interest in the subject.As for the results I suppose iron and alu wear particles are normal for a new engine being in its running in period.As for calcium it was suggested that it could be due to anti foaming oil additives as much as dirt contamination. I will however be checking my air filter and intake for any damage etc.

Many thanks for your time

You are correct in your point re: monitoring the dip stick for increases in oil level. However, if the oil level increased significantly in a relatively short space of time I would immediately stop using the vehicle and change the oil as a matter of some urgency. I think you would not need a laboratory to tell you that excessive fuel leakage is then a certainty.

In addition to my previous reply. Calcium is an oil additive and not related to dirt. Increases in silicon and aluminium (together) are dirt indicators. Basically, these are the main constituents in British earth/soil.

Dave,

Thank you for your replies, much informative!

Absolutely, if oil keeps creeping up quickly then bore wash is seriously bad or you just piston rings .

One more question re Alu - you mentioned this is indicative with dirt contamination. Isn't it also indicative of detonation (piston being "eaten away") or alu head damage? I am not sure what is the actual level of particles which would indicate such a problem. Also copper is potentially indicative of head gasket damage?Sorry for the barrage of questions but I hope you'd be able to spare some of your time to give me a sentence or two of an answer.

Many thanks!

I wish there was a simple, ‘if copper is high, it’s this etc etc etc’ but there is not such a simple explanation.

The thing about wear metal increases is that it rare to see a single element increase. Bearings and other components are made of several different metals and you see patterns of wear that are suggestive of a particular kind of wear. But it’s not an exact science.

Aluminium could be piston wear related but less likely to be so when it is present with silicon at specific ratios. So dirt is the most probable source of aluminium in your case.

Also residual contamination from new build engines. Machining debris not flushed from the system etc.

There are several sources of copper in engines, ranging from bearing, rocker arm bushings, pin bushings, thrust washers, an additive in engine coolant. But again, it is assessed by looking at the whole picture.

Regards

Dave

So, as you can see I need to check my oil filter and send another sample. Bit dissapointed with lack of petrol content measurement in the oil sample provided but this is how it works. I will enquire about having it done but it sounds like a costly thing to do.

Let me know your comments plz.

[sharkrider]

how much oil does yours use Jab?

[Jabozuma]

When I dropped the oil at 5k miles I topped up with .75ltr up to that time. I measured what I dropped and all together used 2 ltr of oil. Then I refilled with 3.6 ltrs as per manual which gave me 2-3mm below top of the hatched area and not as indicated in the manual. Now it is circa 7k and oil level has not moved so far.

[trundlenut]

If you wanted to know whether you do have an appreciable amount of petrol present in the oil I know a lab near Chester which could perform the analysis. You're probably looking at around £80 for the analysis of a single sample but they should be able to quantify the petrol content.

I use them to provide forensic examination of oil in the ground (source, age, composition) for work.

[Jabozuma]

Cheers trundlenut, I would like to get more than one price for this service so yes plaese

[trundlenut]

Jones Environmental Forensics are the people you want to talk to. They normally deal with oils spills and the like but Jim Jones certainly knows what he is talking about and I should think they will be able to help you. They may charge more for a single sample from a individual rather than a company but I'm not sure.

They will use gas chromatography and Mass Spectrometry to look at an oil sample and determine it's provenance, amongst other techniques, which is a little more advanced than setting light to it. If you give them a call and explain what you are looking for then they should be able to advise you further.

Minton Treharne and Davies would be some other people to talk to. They do some forensic work as well as oil industry analysis. I don't know what sort of cost you would be looking at from them though.

[gadgetman]

How much was the test?

[James I]

We us Gas and mass spectro for testing ink migration in food packaging! A single test is €3,000! Oil test is cheap cheap..

I know the TFSI has an issue or two but is the CSI route the way to rectify the issues or a way to worry yourself to death over what is going on everytime you bounce it off the red line?

Very informative though, thanks for sharing.

[grapo]

The analysis said the oil "looks fine".

I would leave it be now and enjoy your motor. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove.

[GeneralPurpose]

Watcha Jabo,

Just one thing if I may ask...why are you testing oil if your car is performing ok with it's oil usage? Is there another problem you are concerned about? (yeah...I know, that's two things!!)

[PulsarET]

Is this "dirt" to small for the filter to do it's job?

[James I]

The figures quoted are in "ppm" parts per million. so if you equate 10 parts per million to being similar to throwing a sugar cube into a super tanker full of water and then trying to find it.

I would say the trace figures above are negligible and probably well within tolerance for such tests.

[Jabozuma]

The price is normally £45 or sth, mine was done at a discount of £35+VAT.

I'm not worried too much really. I'm just very curious mind . The only unanswered question is fuel content in the oil, which was put in the spot light by lower than expected viscosity. The are potential reasons for it were described. I find it very interesting...

[JerryT]

Jabo

Save a drop of your new oil and send with your next sample. As I have said, it helps to know the starting point and can be used for comparison. If you really want to pursue the fuel dilution route then contact Intertek at Sunbury. They now control the old QinetiQ labs at Farnborough where all my old kit is so they should be able to do this. However it will not be cheap as a one off as there will be a set up charge (I would have done it my lunchtime but they will definitely charge a couple of hundred I guess).

And don't believe anyone who says you can measure fuel dilution by flash point. That is completely wrong as some very nice people from Cummins learnt when I produced the evidence as James mentioned from a gas chromatograph

Should have mentioned that you can equate 1 ppm to 1 mg per litre

[FROMAX]

Jabozuma

This may be interesting for you:

http://bmwservice.li....com/27699.html

Page is in russian but i think google can translate it quite well.

[xman]

Well, from what I see, this test tells you nothing, the advice given is meaningless and it cost you more than changing the oil.

[Jabozuma]

Jerry, if it's £££ I will have to give it a pass - not THAT curious . I will ask the lab which did this test if they offer such services as well all the others mentioned here. Flash point test was performed by the AA tech-he took the stick out and put his lighter to it saying "See here Gov, not catching fire, means no fuel in oil Gov" . This when I called my dealership saying that I think my oil level is raising and I think my car was making oil. It turned out I was not cleaning the stick properly before dipping it in lol.

[Jabozuma]

Well, from what I see, this test tells you nothing, the advice given is meaningless and it cost you more than changing the oil.

Err, excuse me? Just because you cannot understand it doesn't mean it is meaningless. Perhaps it is meaningless to you but very meaningful to me and extremely informative. If I had spark plugs problem (two members here lost their engines to it and had them replaced under warranty ) that test would have told me that and would've well equipped to had it acted upon.

[xman]

If I had spark plugs problem (two members here lost their engines to it and had them replaced under warranty ) that test would have told me that and would've well equipped to had it acted upon.

And how would that test have told you that?

And isnt it easier just to look at your spark plugs?

[Jabozuma]

I've seen photos of those plugs. They were so "gunked up" reading them was very limited. All you could tell was that the engine was running rich and plug was overheating due to the deposits - no way to conclude irrevocably the piston was being eaten away. What is goig on in the combustion chamber is extremely complicated! Only recently wet flow benches started to be used to usderstand better what is going on on the induction stroke and 50% of previously set in stone tuning lore went out of the window! They finally started to understand why best flowing heads produce crap power, sometimes wors than bog standard ones .

[Jabozuma]

Jabozuma

This may be interesting for you:

http://bmwservice.li....com/27699.html

Page is in russian but i think google can translate it quite well.

FROMAX, many thanks, great link! Luckily I can read cyrylic, but google translate is quickier

Burried in there, in one of the links, was the viscosity of my oil, pure, at 40C, whcih makes my results even better. It was 68.49 where my used one was 57.2. So now I am even happier as this would indicate normal viscosity drop.

[dazz600]

Sorry Jabbo I just can't see the point at all...

I know many people who drive £500 cars who would give anything to own a vrs

Jmo obviously but maybe you should be thankfull for what you have rather than look for problems that may/may not be present

If my vrs uses oil I put more in. If it becomes a problem I'll just buy something else

Enjoy the car for gawds sake

[gadgetman]

I've seen photos of those plugs. They were so "gunked up" reading them was very limited. All you could tell was that the engine was running rich and plug was overheating due to the deposits - no way to conclude irrevocably the piston was being eaten away. What is goig on in the combustion chamber is extremely complicated! Only recently wet flow benches started to be used to usderstand better what is going on on the induction stroke and 50% of previously set in stone tuning lore went out of the window! They finally started to understand why best flowing heads produce crap power, sometimes wors than bog standard ones .

Running rich would be an ECU/fuel pump issue surely, confused how an oil test would show this

[Jabozuma]

Running rich would be an ECU/fuel pump issue surely, confused how an oil test would show this

Oil test wouldn't, I was responding to xman's question about reading the plugs. Plugs reading (In the absence of wideband lambda on the individual exhaust headers - I've seen them on F1 engines so it is possible) is the best way of understanding combustion in a particualr cylinder.

[c@n]

Following the topic... so far no oil problem but need to be careful...