there is one thing elaborating....its another thing downwright lying and saying your product does Z, when infact its the same as Y (all the rest)!

its like saying a car is 4wd, when infact its only 2wd

I am saying their product is advertised as different in design to the quaife, do you really think its exactly the same as the quaife? and that its just another manufacturer fooling us....or perhaps..it is actually different!

there is one thing elaborating....its another thing downwright lying and saying your product does Z, when infact its the same as Y (all the rest)!

its like saying a car is 4wd, when infact its only 2wd

I am saying their product is advertised as different in design to the quaife, do you really think its exactly the same as the quaife? and that its just another manufacturer fooling us....or perhaps..it is actually different!

There are lots of cases where manufacturers lie in there spiel. It only comes to light when they are prosecuted or are told to change.

Thats what the ASA do in the UK, and they have plenty of examples.

Yes Luca have a read about what they are saying it does and then work out how they can do this with a mechanical diff

Same q asked by top gearbox specialists ;-)

There are lots of cases where manufacturers lie in there spiel. It only comes to light when they are prosecuted or are told to change.

Thats what the ASA do in the UK, and they have plenty of examples.

yes thats true, there are also people who sell horse as beef for example. However in this instance do you really think they can blatently lie to an enthusiast market and fool us all, surely all it would take is for one driver to lose traction to check if the product works or not. Not hard to prove if its a lie or not, surely someone would have checked this by now to be true or not?

I take it you have tested these then?

its all a consipracy, I'll get my foil hat!

yes thats true, there are also people who sell horse as beef for example. However in this instance do you really think they can blatently lie to an enthusiast market and fool us all, surely all it would take is for one driver to lose traction to check if the product works or not. Not hard to prove if its a lie or not, surely someone would have checked this by now to be true or not?

I take it you have tested these then?

its all a consipracy, I'll get my foil hat!

No, what I am saying is 'don't believe everything you read'.

I think, from what I have read, the Wavetrac LSD is as good as other LSD's. Therefore anyway of getting the product sold and in the hands of more customers may be employed by them. In the case of Wavetrac, whether it performs differently is still open to discussion. Would anyone complain to them after fitting? knowing the alternatives were no better, and in some cases believing it is better. The placebo effect is a powerful one

yes i appreciate that, and am well aware not to believe everything i read thanks. I am basing my comments on reading and also driving 2 cars that have had wavetracs now, and 3 cars that have had quaifes fitted.

If you were to 'believe' everything you read, you would actually see the wavetrac has advantages that the quaife does not. (have a look below, its copied from another website)

'What makes a Wavetrac® Different?

To best understand how the Wavetrac® is truly different from the other gear differentials on the market, you first have to understand the primary problem that the Wavetrac® solves.

The problem: Loss of drive during zero or near-zero axle-load conditions.

Zero axle-load is a condition that occurs during normal driving, but creates the most noticeable problems when driving in extreme conditions. Zero or near-zero axle-load is the condition that exists when there is 'no-load' applied through the drivetrain, when one drive wheel is nearly or completely lifted (often in aggressive cornering). It also occurs during the transition from engine driving a vehicle to engine braking and back, even with both drive wheels firmly on the ground.

Here's how that loss of drive hurts you:

1. If you lift a wheel, all gear diffs except Wavetrac®, will NOT power the other wheel.
   
2. During the transition from accel to decel, all gear diffs except Wavetrac®, do nothing.
   

Why does this happen?

All gear LSDs (including Torsen®, Truetrac®, Quaife®, Peloquin, OBX, etc.) work in basically the same manner: they divide the drive torque between the two axles, applying drive to each side, up to the available grip of each tire. The amount of drive torque one wheel can get over the other is described as the bias ratio, a measure of the torque split across the axle.

Standard, open differentials have a bias ratio of 1:1. They can only apply as much drive torque as there is available traction at one wheel. When one wheel loses grip, the total available drive is lost as well (at a 1:1 ratio). All your power goes out the slipping wheel - along the path of least resistance.

Torque biasing differentials offer increased bias ratios over open differentials. For example, if a diff has a bias ratio of 2.5:1, then it can apply drive torque to the wheel with the most traction (gripping wheel) at 2.5 times the traction limit of the wheel with the least traction (slipping wheel). This is a significant improvement over an open diff… most of the time.

The problem is that when one tire has LITTLE or NO grip (zero axle-load), the other wheel gets ZERO DRIVE, because (basic math here): 2.5 x 0 = 0.

Lift a wheel (or substantially unload a wheel) and you get zero axle-load on that side - that means that during the time the wheel is unloaded, the typical diff will NOT power the wheel that's still on the ground. No matter how high the bias ratio, you get no power to the ground.

During the transition from accel to decel, where you have near zero torque on the axle, even if the wheels are on the ground, the typical diff is unable to begin applying drive torque until AFTER the zero torque condition is over. While this condition is generally short-lived, the fact that most diffs can do nothing during that time means that there will be a delay once the zero torque condition stops - creating a reaction time in the driveline.

This speed differential causes the Wavetrac® differential to step into action:

<a name="a23">Precisely engineered wave profiles are placed on one side gear and its mating preload hub. As the two side gears rotate relative to each other, each wave surface climbs the other, causing them to move apart.

Very quickly, this creates enough internal load within the Wavetrac® to STOP the zero axle-load condition.

The zero axle-load condition is halted, and the drive torque is applied to the wheel on the ground (the gripping wheel), keeping the power down.

Some gear differentials rely solely on preload springs to combat loss of drive. The drawback is that you can't add enough preload to prevent loss of drive without creating tremendous handling and wear problems at the same time. So, to avoid these problems, the preload from ordinary spring packs must be reduced to a level that renders them ineffective at preventing loss of drive. The Wavetrac® is the only differential that can automatically add more load internally when it's required.

In the case where both wheels are on the ground during zero axle load, such as during a transition to deceleration, the Wavetrac® device is able to prepare the drivetrain for when the zero torque condition stops, eliminating the delay seen with ordinary gear diffs.

What this means for you as a driver is that power is delivered to the gripping wheels for more time and in a more constant manner - making you faster and improving stability.

The Wavetrac® truly is different - and its innovative features can make a real difference in your car's performance'.

Of course people would complain if it wasn't as described, we all would considering the money they cost!!

Perhaps the other member who has one fitted will comment, we tested that around brands properly recently (full on no less) am sure he would like to know he has been duped, and that his is really the same as a quaife and that his performance is a mere placebo..

OOOOOOH me likey :clap: would have any of Quaiffe, Peloquin or Wavetrac, the OBX looks like to much work, get what you pay for.

yes obx, requires work, the link to the one above is not correct either, we run an 02j not an 02a, though i suspect the price is similar.

if you have access to a machine shop, and someone who knows how to fit, then its perhaps worth a punt, however i would fit for ease and quality the wavetrac suprisingly.

how much are these

Not as much as you think, speak to W8Performance (..Rob..) on here

in the states they are around 850-900bucks

http://www.autotech.com/category/wavetrac-differentials.html

99% of people won't notice any difference

I have driven and fitted most on the market and have driven all of them and no difference IMO

I have also been in that said car around track again no difference IMO

Its not being duped its just how it is !!

I personally will sell and fit wavetrac as rob at w8 supply's me so that's what I use.

but there is a difference, when you lose traction a quaife and then regain, a quaife can grab, the wavetrac doesnt, read up on other forums, plenty of other members advocate its use, more so that people slating it or saying it doesnt work as described thats for sure.

if you are selling it, you are doing yourself an injustice by not highlighting its benefit over the competitors product.

Let people be there own judge as said I didn't notice any difference and have driven all 3 types why would I tell the customer any different ??

What ones have you driven with ?

pass...as to why! but the fact you have said the wavetrac isnt actually as decribed earlier in the thread and that they are false advertising (selling a product that doesn't do what they say) and is no different in terms of how its made to the quaife but yet are still going to recommend people buying and fitting it is slightly odd, surely you would just fit the quaife setup who are local, and offer a Uk warranty without any issue of sending stock back to the states for warrantly claims.

All I am suggesting is that it is a different product, in its construction and works slightly differently (better imo) as i am sure wavetrac will verify.

i drove the last quaife you owned iirc for starters, the one you sold billy, that was owned by amateur stuntman. most recent car i drove with a wavetrac was petes car, and one of my mates tom at prept, in his mk4 (around the same time).

So did you notice any difference?

i noticed no torquesteer or grab with the wavetrac in the wet, whereas i remember that with the quaife in general (ie on gravel) especially in the wet however. Dont get me wrong, the quaife is good, but the wavetrac is better imo. I suspect thats why rob sells them rather than the quaife product, despite the fact quaife are literally down the road from him. If there was no difference am sure he would go with quaife, if nothing else for ease of purchase.

I know ryan at autotech (the manufacturer of wavetrac) in the states from years ago when he helped me out with my mk2 (I have their ignition coil, coil amplifier, leads and power module), I can email him and ask him to explain the difference in costruction if you like? and confirm the fact the the wavetrac is not the same design as the quaife, does work differently, and is not a placebo effect with a same as all the others product spec. I am sure he will be keen to correct the misundertanding.

Yeah I understand what they say it does

But what I'm saying is IMO I did not notice any difference !

Maybe I need to drive harder

Your missing my point is me personally didn't notice the difference

I can sell all 3 happy that they will all make a huge difference and then its down to customer choice but if ask my opinion what's better I cant split them.

I am happy to have a look at running a group buy or forum discount on these if a few people are interested.

Rob

I am happy to have a look at running a group buy or forum discount on these if a few people are interested.

Rob

Count me in buddy..

Sent from my Galaxy S3.

Iam defiantly interested in a group buy if one is run as iam after one soon

Group buy, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! I've brought one now lol

Yes wavetrac says that there's is special but under inspection there is no difference in design and this was brought up by other manufactures lol

Gimic to sell IMO but there good and I will get another one soon

lol, sorry buddy, but what you said is above

i said, there is a difference in design, which there is.

whether you feel a difference driving with one is a different matter and not what i was questioning, you obviously weren't driving hard enough anyways

Lol that was going by discussion by other manufactures to what I stand by it might be different but in reality I don't care as to busy with work lol

As I will sell them all infact I favour wavetrac as it brought through w8 and they get my buisness all day long

What would you do if you didn't have google ? Lol

Yeah trying with the driving got some lessons lines up for some track work as got the bug after going out with Pete

Gonna hopefully run a car in the vag trophy next year ;-)

A diff for the 02J (up to 2004), ARP bolts, installation kit and delivery is £930 all in.

If a few people want to get involved I may be able to get this closer to £900.

Thanks

Rob

Lol that was going by discussion by other manufactures to what I stand by it might be different but in reality I don't care as to busy with work lol

As I will sell them all infact I favour wavetrac as it brought through w8 and they get my buisness all day long

What would you do if you didn't have google ? Lol

Yeah trying with the driving got some lessons lines up for some track work as got the bug after going out with Pete

Gonna hopefully run a car in the vag trophy next year ;-)

lol, no those were your words, you said it was the same design as fact! Again we can check with wavetrac if you like, especially as you are gonna be selling them, am sure they would want you to know how they work exactly . You should care if you are wrong, especially as you are giving advice on them on here, which isn't right, i was just correcting you. Something you have done to plenty of others. We are all wrong at times..

Nice dig btw, dunno...without google, perhaps i would tell everyone factually incorrect information about things that i am meant to know about