Whenever there is discussion of the merits of or even necessity for 4WD, people always point out that havng suitable winter tyres is as important as (if not more important than) as having 4WD when it comes to coping with snow, ice and other low-temperature conditions.  My own view is that, under those circumstances, it is probably an advantage to have both.

But the other reason for wanting the extra traction provided by 4WD is in order to cope with wet grass, muddy roads, muddy field gateways and roadside verges - not necessarily just in winter.  Can anyone advise, please - how helpful are winter tyres (or other specialist tyres) in these circumstances?  Any specific recommendations or other general advice please?
 
 

Edited 14 November, 201312 yr by Stuarted

Yes, they are better as the deeper, more open tread pattern helps in those conditions too. I use them when camping as well as in winter.

 

Mud and Snow.

In a short answer yes, but still no where near as good as a proper mud tyre.

I can speak from experience. Additionally, all serious winter tyres are marked 'M&S' which is for mud and snow.

 

My winter tyres on my last car (Vredestein Snowtrac 3's) were head and shoulders above summer tyres on wet grass and mud. This was tested twice in different conditions.

 

Wet grassy field in Nov with a uphill section to exit - range rover sport (a friends car) spinning all four wheels and not moving. My car drove round him and out the gate. This was mostly because the cars had parked on the slope in the dry and then tried to set off from a standstill uphill. Once significant momentum had been achieved, they were alright.

 

Same Field in Dec with snow/slush - EXACT same thing happened to the same Range Rover and we pulled away! (snow on mud/grass)

 

Big smile on face 

 

All 4WD vehicles are beaten if they do not have the correct tyres for the conditions. A FWD car with winter tyres in the snow will seriously outperform and 4WD car with summer tyres (i think there is an autocar video about this - yep here it is with YETI's - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_A)

 

However, as meta55b said - they dont have anything on mud specific tyres.

Edited 14 November, 201312 yr by NotSoSimple

I can speak from experience. Additionally, all serious winter tyres are marked 'M&S' which is for mud and snow.

My winter tyres on my last car (Vredestein Snowtrac 3's) were head and shoulders above summer tyres on wet grass and mud. This was tested twice in different conditions.

Wet grassy field in Nov with a uphill section to exit - range rover sport (a friends car) spinning all four wheels and not moving. My car drove round him and out the gate. This was mostly because the cars had parked on the slope in the dry and then tried to set off from a standstill uphill. Once significant momentum had been achieved, they were alright.

Same Field in Dec with snow/slush - EXACT same thing happened to the same Range Rover and we pulled away! (snow on mud/grass)

Big smile on face

All 4WD vehicles are beaten if they do not have the correct tyres for the conditions. A FWD car with winter tyres in the snow will seriously outperform and 4WD car with summer tyres (i think there is an autocar video about this - yep here it is with YETI's -

)

However, as meta55b said - they dont have anything on mud specific tyres.

Sorry, M+S are most definitely not winter tyres.

Winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and to qualify for this have to provide at least 10% more traction on ice and snow than a standard tyre. This is achieved by using a different compound, special tread patterns and sipes in the tread blocks.

All M+S means is that it is an open tread pattern. There are no tests on the amount of traction on snow and ice, and can be made of any compound. Most all season tyres are marked M+S, as well as some summer tyres. It is a completely meaningless marking as far as winter traction is concerned.

The only tyres classed as winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and have to pass tests to achieve this marking.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/8388582/Getting-to-grips-with-winter-tyres.html

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/8388582/Getting-to-grips-with-winter-tyres.html

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or this...

 

http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tires_de_en/themes/car-tires/winter-tires/markings/markings_en.html

Sorry, M+S are most definitely not winter tyres.

Winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and to qualify for this have to provide at least 10% more traction on ice and snow than a standard tyre. This is achieved by using a different compound, special tread patterns and sipes in the tread blocks.

All M+S means is that it is an open tread pattern. There are no tests on the amount of traction on snow and ice, and can be made of any compound. Most all season tyres are marked M+S, as well as some summer tyres. It is a completely meaningless marking as far as winter traction is concerned.

The only tyres classed as winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and have to pass tests to achieve this marking.

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Yep, I only buy winter tyres with the mountain and snowflake certification logo, but they also have the Mud and Snow marking on them too. I've seen to M+S referred to as Mud and Sand as its more appropriate. Tyres with that will help on a grass field. Someone on here, I forgot who, has some rally remould winter tyres that will be really good in a muddy field.

I was always given to understand that M&S stood for Matsch und Schnee which is German for slush and snow. Always seemed to make sense anyway.

Also you get AT tyres for all terrain and MT for mud terrain

Sorry, M+S are most definitely not winter tyres.

Winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and to qualify for this have to provide at least 10% more traction on ice and snow than a standard tyre. This is achieved by using a different compound, special tread patterns and sipes in the tread blocks.

All M+S means is that it is an open tread pattern. There are no tests on the amount of traction on snow and ice, and can be made of any compound. Most all season tyres are marked M+S, as well as some summer tyres. It is a completely meaningless marking as far as winter traction is concerned.

The only tyres classed as winter tyres have the snowflake on a mountain symbol on them, and have to pass tests to achieve this marking.

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Not entirely correct IMHO. A lot of proper winter tyres do have M+S marking together with the 'snowflake' wear indicator on the tyre. So stating that all M+S tyres are definitely not winter tyres is not true. It is however very true that you can find M+S marking on a lot of different types of tyres and for different seasons. Mostly because of marketing purposes.

 

i.e. SWMBO is driving on a fresh set of Nokian WR D3 tyres this winter which are supposedly one of the best winter tyres and have both markings on them.

Yes, but as you said, they have the snowflake symbol.

M+S by itself is not a winter tyre.

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Just ordered a set of alloys and the nokian wr d3 for £812 delivered from http://oponeo.co.uk/

can't wait to try them out and give feedback

Lots of intersting and helpful comments here, folks - thank you.

It is clear that M+S tyres are not the same as winter tyres.  Although some tyres claim to be both, there are also some M+S tyres which are possibly worse as winter tyres than "ordinary" or summer tyres.

As I understand it, this is because the essence of a winter / snow tyre is

- a compund which is soft, flexible and grippy even at low temperatures (below 7 degrees C)
- tread pattern in flexible blocks which can move slightly to grip the road and bite into snow
- lots of 'sipes' (small, thin cuts into the thread) which can open out and grip wet surfaces, almost mopping them dry

An M+S tyre may have these characterstics as well, or it may just have a large, chunky tread pattern, possibly with rigid blocks and a hard compound which may help in deep mud or on loose surfaces but won't help much in the cold or wet.

I am as likely to encounter mud and wet grass as I am to encounter snow and ice, so ideally I want a tyre which is good on both.  Luckily these conditions occur mostly in winter, so a good winter tyre which is good on mud should do what I want; it doesn't need to be a good summer tyres as well.

Unfortuntately all the reviews and comparisons I have seen of winter tyres only cover their performance in the cold and on snow and ice.  I have never read a review of how well winter tyres - particularly the popular ones such as the Goodyear Ultragrip 8, Continental TS850 or Nokian WR D3 - cope with mud or wet grass, either in comparison with each other, or with dedicated M+S tyres, or even with 'ordinary' summer tyres.

Does anyone know of any such review, or have any practical experience of how well various winter tyres compare when used on mud and wet grass, please?
 
   

Edited 15 November, 201312 yr by Stuarted

Unlike winter tyres, offroad tyres are pretty much polar (wahey!) opposites of road tyres. Tyres that you can go clomping through the mud in will be noisy, greatly increase fuel consumption and be pretty poor on the road. I would personally just use winter tyres (with mountain and snowflake logo) which have the M+S marking on them. Its what I use when I go camping and have never had any problems.

 

You can't have it all at once. Every tyre is a compromise.

Lots of intersting and helpful comments here, folks - thank you.

It is clear that M+S tyres are not the same as winter tyres.  Although some tyres claim to be both, there are also some M+S tyres which are possibly worse as winter tyres than "ordinary" or summer tyres.

As I understand it, this is because the essence of a winter / snow tyre is

- a compund which is soft, flexible and grippy even at low temperatures (below 7 degrees C)

- tread pattern in flexible blocks which can move slightly to grip the road and bite into snow

- lots of 'sipes' (small, thin cuts into the thread) which can open out and grip wet surfaces, almost mopping them dry

An M+S tyre may have these characterstics as well, or it may just have a large, chunky tread pattern, possibly with rigid blocks and a hard compound which may help in deep mud or on loose surfaces but won't help much in the cold or wet.

I am as likely to encounter mud and wet grass as I am to encounter snow and ice, so ideally I want a tyre which is good on both.  Luckily these conditions occur mostly in winter, so a good winter tyre which is good on mud should do what I want; it doesn't need to be a good summer tyres as well.

Unfortuntately all the reviews and comparisons I have seen of winter tyres only cover their performance in the cold and on snow and ice.  I have never read a review of how well winter tyres - particularly the popular ones such as the Goodyear Ultragrip 8, Continental TS850 or Nokian WR D3 - cope with mud or wet grass, either in comparison with each other, or with dedicated M+S tyres, or even with 'ordinary' summer tyres.

Does anyone know of any such review, or have any practical experience of how well various winter tyres compare when used on mud and wet grass, please?

 

   

 

For mud, compound is irrelevant.

 

What you need is a good, deep, open, tread pattern. Directional tyres help as well as they tend to clear the fluid (and therefore mud) better.

 

Take a look at various tread patterns of winter tyres, you might just have to choose the one with the most open tread pattern you can find.

 

Personally, I would go with TS850s, but I am biased as I like SC5s for summer tyres and the TS830's I had for the last 3 winters were excellent, the TS850 is supposed to improve on these.

I was under the impression you can get winter tyres without the snowflake, as this is only on tyres that have been tested and approved for mandatory use in the alps. Winters without the snowflake cannot be used in the alps.

Nope, the snowflake and three peaks symbol is a standard of the US rubber industry. If they don't have this mark they are not a winter tyre.

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I've got the TS850's and will have them fitted within a couple of days or so.

 

But be warned that they're not cheap at anywhere between £140 (91 H) & £160 (94 V) a tyre + fitting & balancing, I was lucky I got them for £138 per wheel a few weeks ago, needless to say that they have gone up in price.

 

Best time of year to get them is in the late summer/early autumn.

M+S are most definitely not winter tyres.

Some European countries require winter tyres to be used in the winter. Of those, some define winter tyres to be those that have "M+S" marked on the sidewall.

 

The AA have a summary page.

 

For Austria it says "All vehicles driving on snow covered roads must have winter tyres (or all-season tyres marked M+S*/mud and snow) during the winter season (from 1 November to 15 April) and if roads have a covering of snow, slush or ice outside these dates. Tyres must have a minimum tread depth of 4mm."

 

And ... "Germany introduced regulations in 2010 requiring all passenger cars and motorbikes including vehicles from foreign countries to be fitted with winter tyres or all season tyres on all axles when conditions are wintry. Winter tyres (or 'all season' tyres) should bear the mark M+S* or the snowflake symbol on the side wall."

 

And ... "Winter tyres, marked M+S* (with or without spikes/studs), with a tread depth of at least 3mm are compulsory from 1 December until 31 March for Swedish registered vehicles and trailers and also for foreign registered vehicles."

 

Tyres that are marketed as all-season tyres may also be winter tyre using the definitions in these countries, (besides which they probably carry the snowflake / triple-peak symbol).

http://www.tyremen.co.uk/help-and-advice/winter-tyre-basics

 

As I said earlier - do not confuse M+S marking with winter tyres!

 

The fact that winter tyres have both just confuses the issue.

 

Definition of M+S tyres here

http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tires_de_en/themes/van-tires/winter-tires/markings/markings_en.html

 

Just because in some countries the law says that M+S tyres must be fitted during winter does not mean that they are a winter tyre.