VRS TDI estate vs BMW 320d touring

[Orville]

If you can afford a £30k car and drive regularly in icy conditions, buy winter tyres for the winter. Most people within the UK live in town's or cities where the roads are gritted or cleared pretty quickly during bad weather. In 3 years of ownership snow and ice never stopped me going anywhere that I really needed to go in my 320. If ever I feel that conditions are too dangerous to drive in, I will simply avoid the journey (whatever car I am driving).

I work for a Swedish company and spend a lot of time in Sweden. It gets pretty cold there in the winter and many Swedes happily drive RWD Mercs, BMW's, old Volvo's etc. Everyone there uses winter tyres because FWD, RWD and even 4WD mean nothing if the tyres have zero grip.

Edited 24 November, 2013 by Orville

[Zdenek Fibich]

Orville, I don't think you'll be disappointed when you move from a BMW to a Skoda.  I wanted to test-drive a 3-series Touring, and the demonstrator that the dealer had was a 330d.

 

The real test of a demonstrator is what it's like to get back into your own car after the test-drive.  And my current Octavia vRS petrol wasn't disgraced.  Sure, there was some extra quality in general - about £2,000 worth I'd say.  But not enough to justify the extra cost of even a 320 over another Octavia.  So a new vRS is on order, and (praise be) already with the dealer.

 

I absolutely agree with you about winter tyres.  FWD cars are still at an advantage in snow and ice, but  RWDs shod with winter tyres can still get about.

[stevehg]

I don't think it does. During the last spell of snow, I seen quite a few beamers stuck on pretty gentle slopes. I streaked past them in my FWD people carrier.

 

The combination of RWD and low profile tyres in snow is a catastrophically bad for traction. Of course if you put on smaller rims with higher profile winter tyres, and put about 100kg of ballast in the boot it would be a different story.

Good for you so you've driven past some stuck rwd BMW's in the snow. I've drive by stuck fwd and 4wd vehicles in the UK in the snow, doesn't mean they are useless too.

I've owned 4x 3 series, 3x 5 series, 2x 7 series, 2x M's along with countless 4x4's both permanent and vari, 7x fwd. this gives me some personal experience. Never once got stuck in the snow in UK with rwd. Rwd is not the best but it's not the disaster it's being made out to be. A rwd car copes with the majority of the weather the uk gets every year. Also, put a set of winters on one, and the only time you'd get stuck in UK is if the snow is too deep for a car.

Btw when has the profile of a car tyre improved a tyres traction in snow?? You have to explain that one to me.

[Dodgy]

Are we really debating that BMWs and other rear drive vehicles are at a disadvantage in snow and ice? I only know two owners of BMWs, one of them lives up on the moors outside Newcastle, he doesn't (actually, can't) use his BMW 5 series GT in snow, that's why they bought a little 4wd runabout.

 

This article, though obviously having an axe to grind, is worth a read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/columnists/neil-lyndon/8850282/Winter-driving-best-and-worst-cars-for-handling-snow.html

[stevehg]

I'm merely pointing out that people seem to be going over the top when it comes to winter in the UK. RWD cars are not as useless as they are made out to be, and certainly doesn't merit citing as the justification for choosing a VRS over a 3 series.

I have a 4x4 superb estate sitting on the driveway and next week I'll be swapping the summers over on the wife's 500 to winters. So I'm neither rwd biased or ignorant of winter conditions. Equally, I'm not of the opinion that driving a RWD in the UK means you can't use it in wintry conditions.

Cheers

Steve

Edited 25 November, 2013 by stevehg

[freddyg]

I've had my 320D SE for 3 years now.  I do 35k a year.  

 

I live in the east midlands (pretty flat) but work up in the lake district (not flat at all).  Over the last couple of winters, I haven't had a problem with the snow at all.  I put a couple of bags of salt in the boot, along with a shovel, and just make sure I take it easy.  I've never got stuck yet.

 

I asked my lease company if I could switch to winter tyres, but they refused - OEMs only.

 

I would love another beemer, but I need the space - hence I've ordered a vRS estate.

[fiisch]

I test drove the Beamer.  Dull as dishwater and I've had a long-standing hatred of their horrid interiors.  It's an ugly, plain Jane of a car that won't be noticed amongst a sea of Euroboxes on the motorway.

 

The vRS with the right options has the potential to stand out, and is the "top" model.  I also thought it was nicer to drive and felt a lot quicker than the BMW variant I had the misfortune to waste an hour in.

[Orville]

The fact that we are comparing the Octavia to a 3-Series is a testament to how far Skoda have progressed within the past decade. The Automotive Press widely recognises the 3-Serice as one of the (if not the) best handling mid-sized family cars. They also tend to rate it's build, refinement and overall quality feel very highly, and as a long-term owner I concur with this. The VRS is a better car "for the money" and a better car for "practicality and space", but it is not a better car.

 

I personally would not move from my 320D to a VRS TDI, because the BMW was equal or better than the TDI within every area apart from space and price. However I did really like the Octavia so I went for the VRS TSI. This wins on space, price, performance and refinement, so tipped the balance in the Octy's favour. I will miss RWD because it is more fun to drive, and I will certainly miss the quality feel of the Beamer.

[philhoward]

I've driven a couple of BMWs recently (both petrols) and not been impressed.  Last one was a 318i E90 Touring - is it not representative?  Doesn't make me want to try a 320d personally..

[Rakash]

Hi, i am an Norwegian and live in Norway, i travel as a service engineer around the world and spend a lot of time in rental cars, winter and summer.

What strikes me is that if in GB you are "lucky" to get a rental car with winter tires you are safe, even in the worst conditions GB can offer, rwd, fwd or 4x4, its the tire that decides if you are bambi on ice or not.

As snow and ice on the road are more common in Norway/scandinavia id say a set of proper winter tires is the most important "extra" you get. And for a lease company to say no to a set of winter tires is bonkers.

I have owned a few BMW's and never had any issues with getting stuck in snow, but you need to pay attention to the conditions and drive accordingly. 

But to compare a F31 to a Octavia is a bit of as the F31 is the better car in al terms except space and price.

if OP needs space, go 4 the octy, if not go bmw!

[watttsuk]

If money was no object and I didn't need the space I would have the BMW. I've had two 3 series cars, one saloon, one touring and am now in an X1. But to get the same spec as the vrs with a BMW badge I would have to spend £30000+. That is why I've placed an order for a vrs tdi estate. My most loved car of all time was an audi A3 1.8t sport, but family life has been in the way ever since. Hoping the vrs will live up to the audi.

[fiisch]

If money was no object and I didn't need the space I would have the BMW. I've had two 3 series cars, one saloon, one touring and am now in an X1.

 

You have my sincere condolences....

[sniperpenguin]

Ironically, the 320d was my first car to look at when I was purchasing. I needed a "motorway cruiser" for a reasonable cost and the 320d is pretty much the standard others need to meet.

 

Cost / Finance deals are the issue, and the 1-series is also getting a big push. The fact that car audio / interiors have moved on so much means that "Approved Used" wasnt worth a look, and the VRS was 85%-90% of the car for a damn sight less cash.

[booke23]

Btw when has the profile of a car tyre improved a tyres traction in snow?? You have to explain that one to me.

 

It's very simple if you bother to think about it.

 

1. You can't put snow chains on low profile tyres.

 

2. They have wider tread compared to higher profile alternatives. Wide tread gives extra grip in all conditions, except snow and ice, where it has the opposite effect.

 

3. In deeper snow, tyres with high profile side walls obtain some grip from the side walls being buried in snow. Low profile tyres have much smaller side walls so this effect is much reduced.

 

I am not suggesting the OP goes for the vRS on the basis of winter performance of a RWD car (I didn't offer an opinion either way...he should get whatever car he likes). I am simply refuting your assertion that problems associated with RWD cars in the winter are completely down to "driving skills rather than the abilities of RWD" ....which is utter tosh.  

[stevehg]

Nice reply booke23,

This is what you originally posted...

The combination of RWD and low profile tyres in snow is a catastrophically bad for traction.

Let's take two winter tyre sizes....

195/45 16"

195/60 16"

So according to your logic the higher profile is going to have significantly better performance in snow than the 45. Especially point 3, that sidewall grip is the best reason yet. ;)

Edited 25 November, 2013 by stevehg

[booke23]

So according to your logic the higher profile is going to have significantly better performance in snow than the 45.

 

 You are misquoting me. I said:-

 

 In deeper snow, tyres with high profile side walls obtain some grip from the side walls

 

I didn't say 'significantly'. I said the tyre with the higher profile side wall will have some extra grip in deeper snow. Which is perfectly true.     

Edited 25 November, 2013 by booke23

[stevehg]

Let's not worry about it as this thread has gone way off topic anyway. I assume you were trying to say is 'narrower tyres are better than the wide low profile tyres fitted to most modern cars in snow.'

That we both agree on

[booke23]

Let's not worry about it as this thread has gone way off topic anyway.

 

Indeed.

Edited 25 November, 2013 by booke23

[Honkycrash]

Guys, this is a stupid argument. The BMW is the better car. Whether or not you prefer RWD or FWD, few experts will say anything other than the BMW spanks the Octavia for ride, handling, refinement and quality. There is a reason similarly specified 3-Series cost £10K more than Octavia.

 

*If costs are the same and your priorities are quality and refinement, get the BMW. Easy choice.

*If you need the extra space and practicality, get the Skoda. Easy choice.

 

For most people the BM will end up costing much more in terms of list price and servicing/maintenance. However if finance deals are equal, choose which of the above requirements you value most.

 

The 3-Series is a great car. Sure, plenety of ******* drive them but plenty of half-blind and deaf 80+ year-olds drive Skoda's, so each clan has it's stero types (even if the reality is not always true). As someone above has said, go ask this question on the BMW forums and see what response you get. My guess is that most of the replies will be slightly bias.

 

I am moving from a 320D (company car) to a VRS TSI (privately owned due to company car policy changes) because it will cost me less money and be far more practical. If I didn't have kids, a dog, a mortgage and an expesive wife, I would have simply purchased another 3 Series. Great cars.

l agree with your point having had both.. New it has to be Skoda. 3 to 4 years old (Used) then BMW, especially if it wasa private purchase and you are keeping forever.

[Andrew@DTUK]

Never mind the cars, I think Skoda owners are a much friendlier bunch altogether

[tamkyo101]

I have a 3 series touring currently (330D on a 59 plate) and am constantly letting people out at junctions and letting them through gaps to try to assuage the stereotype of BMW drivers but I feel it's all in Vain LMAO.

 

Am currently looking at changing to a VRS TDI Combi DSG as my new Golf Club and snowboard carrier

Edited 8 January, 2014 by tamkyo101

[Orville]

My 330 is the nicest car I have ever driven and for effortless miles and I've owned close to 180 cars, if it wasn't for the 25mpg I would drive it until one of us died, bmw gets my vote

Wow, owning 180 cars by the age of 27 (according to your profile) is pretty impressive. That's 7 per year since the day you were born, or 18 per year since you reached the legal driving age. You must be picky to buy a new car every 3 weeks, or do you just hate washing them?

[Deano's Dog]

The 320 has excellent traction, better than the FWD VRS at least. Sure, floor it in the wet and thr rear will slide out but it is very controllable and easy to avoid. Paving slabs is a silly suggestion which would worsen things and unbalance the rear, bur I think you were joking there. In the wet the BMW will put it's power down much better than the VRS. RWD is also more fun to drive.

You have not driven a BMW in the snow then? My 530d auto touring was so bad that I have had my wife sit in the boot to get out of the small incline from my road

[pipsyp]

Sorry but I think the facts stand as below:-

No rear wheel drive car is particularly effective in snow, BMW or not we all know that but seeing that the UK generally only sees some snow maybe once a year I cant see how its that bigger a deal....more remote parts of yorkshire/scotland then fair enough. However put winter tyres on and they are loads better; I wouldnt imagine for a minute all the millions of BMWs driving round Germany at this time of year are all 4wd/x drive variants.

Its opinion but id say on the whole a 320d in the right kind of spec, whilst more expensive and perhaps not quite a fair comparison is a better drivers car than the vRS TDi. Its also faster. Id have to say much the same for the 328i vs thr TSi. Pretty much every reputable car magazine raves about the F30 3 series and mearly suggest the new Octavia is a very good car; they cant all be wrong surely? The one area the Octavia does really nail it is on practicality; even a 3 series tourinf has a smaller load compartment than a vRS hatch.

My father in law had a newish (previous not current gen) A6 Allroad until fairly recently; in the last bought of fairlh heavy snow we had they tried to visit us from Sussex in Oxfordshire and ended up turning round and going home just a couple of miles from home and my father in law is a fair and confident driver.....now that car is a Q5 in an A6 shell and a supposedly v capable soft road 4x4 but it wasnt able to come up with the goods to get them up to ours.....must confess the combination of 19" wheels and summer tyres did not help one bit but it turned out to be almost just as unusable in the snow as any other front/rear drive car despite its trick quattro system and air suspension. Without smaller wheels and decent winter tyres it was a complete waste.

Edited 12 January, 2014 by pipsyp

[Orville]

Within the UK snow settles for an average of 16.5 days per year. Some of this is just a light dusting, and some much deeper. 16.5 days is equivalent to 4.52% of the year, meaning that for 95.48% of the time it is either dry or wet.

Some places see much more than this and some much less, but for most people it makes more sense to choose a car which best suits their needs for most of the time, rather than choosing it for occasional bad weather. If I lived on a steep hill within an isolated location I would choose 4wd over fwd & rwd, but as I live in London coping with all three options is easy. Snow bares no relevance to my choice in car. I was happy with my 3 series and will hopefully be just as happy with my VRS. I may however miss the added traction of rwd over fwd in most normal driving conditions, and for the days it does snow I'll either walk or take train rather than risk other drivers making mistakes. Having winter tyres, snow chains or 4wd will not prevent someone else from losing control and hitting you, and that's half of the risk.

Edited 12 January, 2014 by Orville