Hi there this is my second post so be nice. Basically I bought a Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo last week and there's been a bit of a problem when I went to tax it. I got the car from a dealer. I've been told that the previous owner somehow messed up the paperwork and put their details in to the "New Keeper" part when they sold the car, so they were issued with a logbook, thereby making the part I have useless as it's technically from an old logbook. Until I get the new one off the previous owner, I can't tax the car. I spoke to the dealer and they said they'd sort it. So basically can anyone tell me what I should do? What is an acceptable amount of time to drive your car with no tax? I have proof I went to the DVA office if that helps. I'm a little unsure what to do, the guy at the DVA said it's a gray area and they can't tell me whether or not I should really be driving the car

I don't think (from a legal point) you should be driving the car at all - it's not registered to you, therefore your insurance is invalid (as you must be the registered keeper of the vehicle) and it's not taxed to be on the road.

 

If the previous owner messed up the paperwork and entered their details on the new keeper - they didn't fill out the V5c correctly, there are distinct places for selling you car privately and selling it to a dealer.  The dealer should not have sold the vehicle until it's transferred to them.

 

It is a grey area, but the law states that you cannot drive without insurance, MOT a license and a valid tax disc - so this is pretty black and white.

 

As the contract is between you and the dealer - I would have them sort it out.  Did you get the vehicle on HP or pay with a credit card?  If so you have some protection from the HP / credit card companies (even if you only paid 10% on credit card).

 

To be safe - I'd seek legal advice on this, but you should be covered if it's from a dealer.

Which dealer was it from? Simple response from me would be, give me a courtesy car until it's sorted and legal (possibly tax it for me for the hassle), or give me my money back! Well within your rights.

 

No tax on car (windscreen or computer) and PSNI / DVA camera cars will bounce you and your the licence holder driving it at the time, you carry the can. Bring it to court, to appeal and as much as a magistrate 'may' sympathise with you, the law is black and white they can't do anything but convict you for it. If old keeper was to complete the new V5C(NI) they have now and give you the new keepers supplement you could tax it (but not drive until it's done). If they try to do it any other way it will take longer now and your stuck without a car. Sounds like dealer messed up ultimately, they deal with this paperwork for a living! 

 

Don't risk it in NI, it is lethal for getting caught without VED since 2003! The entire country has an extensive ANPR pole mounted camera network for last few years also. Ironically it will be the DVA that will do you or take you to court. If anyone in Coleraine gave you any advice to the contrary, let me know their name and I will educate them next week.  

 

On the bright side at least you wont need an MOT until the car is 4 years old 

I don't think (from a legal point) you should be driving the car at all - it's not registered to you, therefore your insurance is invalid (as you must be the registered keeper of the vehicle) and it's not taxed to be on the road.

If the previous owner messed up the paperwork and entered their details on the new keeper - they didn't fill out the V5c correctly, there are distinct places for selling you car privately and selling it to a dealer. The dealer should not have sold the vehicle until it's transferred to them.

It is a grey area, but the law states that you cannot drive without insurance, MOT a license and a valid tax disc - so this is pretty black and white.

As the contract is between you and the dealer - I would have them sort it out. Did you get the vehicle on HP or pay with a credit card? If so you have some protection from the HP / credit card companies (even if you only paid 10% on credit card).

To be safe - I'd seek legal advice on this, but you should be covered if it's from a dealer.

You absolutely do not need to be the registered keeper to insure a car. All you need to have is an "insurable interest".

That "interest" can simply be you will suffer loss (financial or other wise) if there is an insured event.

Edited 15 December, 201312 yr by slider

As said above, demand dealer provides you with a car until this is sorted.

Let the dealer sort it out but make very sure you are legal to drive it as the penalties if not could be quite bad (although not sure if there is a difference in NI).

When we buy from a dealer we are paying a premium for the benefit of a warranty, convienience and letting them handle certain issues such as this so get them on the case.

Best of luck and let us know the outcome.

Ignore the insurance comment from hotrod, anyone can insure a car, you do not need to be the owner or the registered keeper. Secondly there is no acceptable timeframe to drive the car without tax, you can be prosecuted from day one.

If it is a decent dealer they can take the in trade slip from the log book and tax it for you then it's all sorted. I've had this done for all my cars. Otherwise do as the others have said and demand a courtesy car or your money back.

So a slight update. It turns out the old logbook was amended for some reason, thereby making the part I have useless, so I can't tax the car. I rang the DVA and they said the car is still taxed at present by the previous owner, but he has the disc. So if the poilce stop me and ask me where the disc is, I don't have it and technically I'm still not the new owner so I'm buggered as far as the police are concerned. If I have a letter from the previous owner saying he won't claim it back that's fine but I'm not gojng to do that. The DVA said if a new logbook was applied for in my name it should replace the old one though I'm not certain of this and I need to clarify with them. So I shall hopefully get a new logbook in the next few days, and then I can tax it and everything will be fine. Until then I have no car. I rang the dealer to explain all this and they said the DVA are talking rubbish. "It's all black and white with them" they said. I said it's all black and white with the police too but they said it's fine legal and all that and to drive the car( which I won't be doing). The dealer said that there was only 1 logbook (directly contradicting the DVA). I mentioned a courtesy car and they started saying "Hello" repeatedly as if it was a bad line, and then hung up. So I rang about 10 times and couldn't get a hold of the guy I bought the car off. So I got my mother to ring and after she gave them both barrels the dealer magically reappeared from the ether and said not to worry about everything and repeated what he said and ignored what I said (they sold me a car I can't drive). I spoke to my solicitor so if there's any more messing about he's going to get in touch with them

 

So basically I can't drive the car at present until I get a new logbook. However, the previous owner still has the most recent one (which the dealer denied despite the DVA saying this directly), so the bit the dealer sent off might be voided by the logbook the previous owner supposedly has anyway and they'll have to get it off him. So hopefully I get a new book in the next few days and that's it sorted, but that might not even fix it, and until then I have no car and I'm gonna have to spend a fortune in taxis to get to work and back 4 times a day ( I work split shifts)

Edited 16 December, 201312 yr by stevenStefano

So a slight update. It turns out the old logbook was amended for some reason, thereby making the part I have useless, so I can't tax the car. I rang the DVA and they said the car is still taxed at present by the previous owner, but he has the disc. So if the poilce stop me and ask me where the disc is, I don't have it and technically I'm still not the new owner so I'm buggered as far as the police are concerned. If I have a letter from the previous owner saying he won't claim it back that's fine but I'm not gojng to do that. The DVA said if a new logbook was applied for in my name it should replace the old one though I'm not certain of this and I need to clarify with them. So I shall hopefully get a new logbook in the next few days, and then I can tax it and everything will be fine. Until then I have no car. I rang the dealer to explain all this and they said the DVA are talking rubbish. "It's all black and white with them" they said. I said it's all black and white with the police too but they said it's fine legal and all that and to drive the car( which I won't be doing). The dealer said that there was only 1 logbook (directly contradicting the DVA). I mentioned a courtesy car and they started saying "Hello" repeatedly as if it was a bad line, and then hung up. So I rang about 10 times and couldn't get a hold of the guy I bought the car off. So I got my mother to ring and after she gave them both barrels the dealer magically reappeared from the ether and said not to worry about everything and repeated what he said and ignored what I said (they sold me a car I can't drive). I spoke to my solicitor so if there's any more messing about he's going to get in touch with them

 

So basically I can't drive the car at present until I get a new logbook. However, the previous owner still has the most recent one (which the dealer denied despite the DVA saying this directly), so the bit the dealer sent off might be voided by the logbook the previous owner supposedly has anyway and they'll have to get it off him. So hopefully I get a new book in the next few days and that's it sorted, but that might not even fix it, and until then I have no car and I'm gonna have to spend a fortune in taxis to get to work and back 4 times a day ( I work split shifts)

 

Spill, who was the dealer, that's shocking! The dealer/trader will be licensed as such and there will be a process of making a complaint about him to, most likely DVA as well. Citizens Advice can prob help you on this a little too. Personally I would just try to get refund just to stick it to the bloke for being a tool. It is your right even with a used car. 

 

You can apply for a new log book as a new owner without having the old V5C(NI) but it does take longer as they then contact registered keeper to ask if it's ok and if they don't reply in a set amount of time (6 weeks perhaps, I can't recall) it gets put in your name and new V5C(NI) sent out. 

 

Definitely pump away at the dealer though, if he didn't complete the trade part of V5C(NI) and give it back to old keeper (was orange part still there when you saw it?) he is being dodgy and possibly not running it through his books. Can be handy to drop a comment like "my father is a solicitor and he says...."  

 

Also worth looking on here to see if anyone local has a VCDS cable and can confirm for you that the mileage is genuine, it's been a massive problem with VAG cars in NI.

 

Also worth a shout for their advice:

 

Northern Ireland Trading Standards Service

Trading Standards Service

176 Newtownbreda Road

Belfast

Northern Ireland

BT8 4QS

t: 0300 1236262

f: 028 90253953

e: [email protected]

w: Northern Ireland Trading Standards Service Trading Standards website

 

Again who was dealer? 

The car isn't usable, so go back to the dealer and demand they sort in 24 hours or return any money paid.

As above name and shame.

Take the car back and get your money back, you have obviously used a dodgey dealer, if they are treating you like this now, they obviously won't look after you if the cars goes wrong.

Put the car in the middle of their forecourt and tell them it is their problem.  They should be giving you a courtesy car while it is sorted out.  What an utter mess.

 

Definite name and shame, especially if it is a main dealer!

Did they sell you what you thought was an untaxed car and you drove away with it?

How was it paid, Cash or Finance. 

If Finance it is not your car yet.  Raise your concerns with the Finance Company.

 

When the car was 'In trade' they could have taxed it.

But as you describe things it appears it was never 'In Trade' with them.

 

The whole thing sounds so odd that you can reject the vehicle quite easily, 

but it is rather important to the actual situation,

 Have you bought a car being sold 'On behalf of a Customer, or member of staff,

or just one they are not putting through their books?

 

Your local Trading Standards really should be your first stop, log the details and see if they 'Will have a Word',  or want an official case logged.

 

george

Ignore the insurance comment from hotrod, anyone can insure a car, you do not need to be the owner or the registered keeper. Secondly there is no acceptable timeframe to drive the car without tax, you can be prosecuted from day one.

If it is a decent dealer they can take the in trade slip from the log book and tax it for you then it's all sorted. I've had this done for all my cars. Otherwise do as the others have said and demand a courtesy car or your money back.

 

True - but, correct me if I am wrong, the insurance company would have asked "Are you the registered owner / keeper of the vehicle" to which, you would naturally say Yes..  This is NOT the case, according to DVLA you are NOT the registered owner / keeper as the V5C would be in the messed up name, which is why you cannot tax it.

 

Therefore you have just voided your insurance..

 

And before anyone says anything to the contrary - YES it does invalidate your insurance if you claim to be the registered owner / keeper and are not. You have declared something which is untrue, which automatically voids insurance.  Don't believe me - give it a go, claim something falsely and have an accident. 

Everyone believes themself to be the registered keeper when they have purchased a vehicle and filled in the V5, or signed at a Car Dealers/Dealership.

 

I say i am the registered keeper and owner when insuring a new car and arranging insurance and the registration of a cherished registration etc.

The car is not even mine yet, but when i pay, then i also believe i am the legal Owner & Registered Keeper.

 

Standard Practice,

and not luckily one of the many things UK Insurance Under writers get away with wiggle room on.

 

Now full and correct details and truthful declarations still count for something with honest customers buying a private vehicle on the very odd occasion.

 

Dealers that are 'Licensed Second Hand Car Dealers' and the likes taking the Pith, can be dimly looked upon by the Authorities.

They Trade and Supply vehicles on a daily basis and know what they are required to do with the Paperwork.

 

george

Definitions (in the insurance brokerage I work at) of the Registered Owner is the person who's name is on the log book, the Keeper of the vehicle is the person who uses it the most.

 

So you could argue you are the Keeper but not the owner.

 

Same thing applies if you buy a car on finance or PCP - you get a logbook in your name (you are the registered Owner) and you use it the most (you are the keeper).

 

Check the insurance, it may define both and you only need to be one of them.

A thought your point was that the DVLA must already have you on the Database,

As Keeper or Owner or Insurance was Invalidated.

Not who can be a keeper or owner or both.

 

My Bad if that was not your point.

 

The point is you insure before leaving home beleiving you are to become the Registered Keeper, & if you are to be the owner,

that you will be the owner.

 

Is that not what every buyer of a car calling or calling into your broker believes.?

 

Insurance to start at 9.00am Monday Morning, "i will be the Registered Keeper and Owner".

 

No buy or collect the car, back home and cancel or delay cover.

Not usual to travel back home and say,

The V5 is now in the post or might be shortly.

 

EDIT.

I an the Registered Keeper of vehicles i do not own.

'Register Keeper', 

are you sure of your defination at your Brokerage.

Keepers might never drive a car,  the owners is the person with the ownership,

a V5 is not title in law to a vehicle.

UK Insurance comprises of a Vehicle requires a minimum 3rd party to be on the road,

then the drivers are named or coverage provided for drivers, like with Group or company cover.

Hire, Courtesy cars, Pool cars etc.

Private cover will obviously be Vehicle first, them main driver, and secondary drivers, or Joint Coverage.

 

There is no 'Registration of Ownership' in the UK that i know of,

you keep your Invoice etc, but a partner might go away with your vehicle and then Register it in their name,

or try to.

I have a vehicle that was being renovated and stored that was stolen from me,

when i find someone has tried to Register as the Keeper, i will be recovering it,

i have proof it was and is mine, they will have no Title to it.

True - but, correct me if I am wrong, the insurance company would have asked "Are you the registered owner / keeper of the vehicle" to which, you would naturally say Yes..  This is NOT the case, according to DVLA you are NOT the registered owner / keeper as the V5C would be in the messed up name, which is why you cannot tax it.

 

Therefore you have just voided your insurance..

 

And before anyone says anything to the contrary - YES it does invalidate your insurance if you claim to be the registered owner / keeper and are not. You have declared something which is untrue, which automatically voids insurance.  Don't believe me - give it a go, claim something falsely and have an accident.

I believe you but the point is your original post suggested that you must be the registered keeper to get insurance, which is not correct.

I am neither registered keeper or owner of the car I insure. Lease company is the owner and registered keeper. Insurance co. is aware of this an no additional premium.

Definitions (in the insurance brokerage I work at) of the Registered Owner is the person who's name is on the log book, the Keeper of the vehicle is the person who uses it the most.

 

So you could argue you are the Keeper but not the owner.

 

Same thing applies if you buy a car on finance or PCP - you get a logbook in your name (you are the registered Owner) and you use it the most (you are the keeper).

 

Check the insurance, it may define both and you only need to be one of them.

VAG finance apparently says you must inform your insurer it's a PCP and that you are NOT the owner according to a recent thread.

 

I believe you but the point is your original post suggested that you must be the registered keeper to get insurance, which is not correct.

I've insured a lease car and done this.  Usually you have issues getting online quotes, so just get the insurable interest changed over the phone.  No change in premium

According to the definitions at our place - registered owner is the person named on the V5C. 

 

We are getting into semantics without knowing the full story - my point is that your insurance MAY be compromised, if pulled by the police and quizzed the owner and keeper could be of the opposite sex, and no additional drivers listed, which would make proving it's your vehicle difficult (without receipts) and then the insurance is in a grey area.

 

Forgetting all the crud before - I would seriously not risk knowingly driving it - and ring the dealership before hand and the insurance company and explain everything - get an email confirming their position if you are able to drive it.  That way if you are stopped and it goes to court, you have some evidence that you believed you were allowed to drive it on the road.

 

The point of fact is - you should not have been sold a car, which has paperwork not in order, and it's up to the dealer to rectify this.  If they do not, then trading standards / legal advice / (and if it's a Skoda dealership), Skoda UK should be informed.

According to the definitions at our place - registered owner is the person named on the V5C. 

 

 

But in big large writing across the top of the current V5 it states:

 

THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.

It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle

Definitions (in the insurance brokerage I work at) of the Registered Owner is the person who's name is on the log book, the Keeper of the vehicle is the person who uses it the most.

 

So you could argue you are the Keeper but not the owner.

 

Same thing applies if you buy a car on finance or PCP - you get a logbook in your name (you are the registered Owner) and you use it the most (you are the keeper).

 

Check the insurance, it may define both and you only need to be one of them.

  

There's no such thing as registered owner, only the registered keeper and or owner. Ownership does not need to be registered with anyone, just as you don't have to register your ownership of your tv.

According to the definitions at our place - registered owner is the person named on the V5C. 

 

We are getting into semantics without knowing the full story - my point is that your insurance MAY be compromised, if pulled by the police and quizzed the owner and keeper could be of the opposite sex, and no additional drivers listed, which would make proving it's your vehicle difficult (without receipts) and then the insurance is in a grey area.

 

Forgetting all the crud before - I would seriously not risk knowingly driving it - and ring the dealership before hand and the insurance company and explain everything - get an email confirming their position if you are able to drive it.  That way if you are stopped and it goes to court, you have some evidence that you believed you were allowed to drive it on the road.

 

The point of fact is - you should not have been sold a car, which has paperwork not in order, and it's up to the dealer to rectify this.  If they do not, then trading standards / legal advice / (and if it's a Skoda dealership), Skoda UK should be informed.

I doubt that, firstly if the police did pull the car there's nothing they would do even if the vehicle is registered to a different name, as long as the person driving at the time has insurance to drive the car (I should know). It's the same when the Mrs drives her car, it's registered to me but the insurance is in her name.

Secondly the insurance won't be invalid as the owner was truthful at the time, the only issue here is the VEL, this is why he/she should not drive the vehicle.

Small point which I believe is important, but could of course be wrong. DVLA covers GB not UK so Norther Ireland has its own licencing organisation and possibly rules. So I think it is important that the OP takes the advice here, which is probably based mainly on experience with DVLA with a pinch of salt. Probably also means comments about V5C may not apply.

That said I cannot believe for a moment that what has happened is acceptable in any way in any part of the UK.

Edited 17 December, 201312 yr by Moist Von Lipwig

I've spoken to my solicitor and I'm ready to go through him if the dealer messes me about any more. I've also spoken to the DVA at length and they couldn't be more helpful, they are very happy to answer questions and help me. Basically the situation at present is that the car is taxed until March by the previous owner. However, I don't have the disc so he could claim it back, but it wouldn't be until January, so as far as the dealer is concerned there's no reason for me to not drive the car because it is technically still taxed so if a camera spots me it'll show up as taxed. However, if the Police stop me and ask me to produce the tax disc, I can't so the DVA say that's why I shouldn't drive the car because the Police could do me for that and there's nothing I can do. So according to the dealer, once the DVA receives the paperwork they sent them, I can tax the car over the phone in my name and everything is sorted, so I'm gonna ring the DVA every day to see if they've got it yet. However the issue is that technically the dealer sent off paperwork from an invalid log book, so the DVA still might not do anything until they receive the correct one (which is what started all this off). The dealer say however that it's no issue, they will get the DVA to sort it.

 

So ideally the DVA receive the paperwork from the dealer and I sort everything over the phone and can drive the car in the next few days. If not I'll ask the DVA for advice and go from there. The funny thing is I could probably sort it quicker myself by getting in touch with the previous owner and getting him to send me the tax disc and logbook

Edited 17 December, 201312 yr by stevenStefano