Another Malaysia airline crashed.

[briskycat]

Obama:

Here is what we know so far. Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russia-backed separatists inside of Ukraine,

It's too early to guess what the intentions of those who launched these missiles. What we know right now, that a surface to air missile was fired. The shot was taken within the territory that is under the control of the separatists

Edited 18 July, 2014 by briskycat

[FUBAR]

This unconfirmed video is popping up all over the net.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpSmiMlwK7U

[sparks03]

Plenty of angry Americans screaming murder over twitter- the US should be aware more than most about the actions of shooting down passenger aircraft.

Facts must be established and fast. It will be interesting to see if that video is real/ footage of mh17

[Jabozuma]

It looks like a passenger airplane with right engine on fire trailing fire from right wing fuel cells

[gadgetman]

Looks like passenger aircraft will be needing flares and chaff before long

[Clunkclick]

Will the Ruskies be able to interrogate the Black Box with their Sinclair Spectrum.    I can also see the Ruskies hurriedly sterilising the crash site and removing all traces of Ruskie missile debris, even going as far as injecting some other nations missile debris, Chinese maybe?

 

Also heard that one Aussie family have lost their daughter and son, one on each of the doomed MAS flights.

Being liberally sprayed with aviation fuel, catching fire (Which melted the skin and lightweight formers), being dowsed with a fireman's hose and being urinated on by drunken  separatist Russian knuckledragging guards can't have helped preserve the chemical evidence.

 

There might be  hope, viz:- the reported acrid smell at the crash site was probably  the  combusted residue of the missile's synthetic solid propellant. If they can get a sample of that and match it to a batch previously produced, they might be able to identify the serial of the missile it went into and determine who was the final user from records.

 

Nick

[theezenutz]

Here's an interesting article I've come across.

Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane - http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-

"The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region."

Puts a slightly different perspective on the whole situation not sure if it's been verified but I'll leave it up to you guys to determine whether it's true or not.

[Clunkclick]

The day it happened, all the top knobs from ICAO were in Montreal on the penultimate day of their once in 10-year oh be joyful on Meteorology.

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Here's an interesting article I've come across.

Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane - http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-

"The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region."

Puts a slightly different perspective on the whole situation not sure if it's been verified but I'll leave it up to you guys to determine whether it's true or not.

Replies to a similar post on PPrune (About page 17) of the MH17 thread, disputed several of the facts of that story earlier on today.

Is all that can be said at the moment that someone thinks they have found a way of effectively politically isolating Mr Putin from the separatist cause short of an exchange of ICBMs.

And this in the year when many in Europe are commemorating WW1.

Nick

Edited 18 July, 2014 by Clunkclick

[theezenutz]

Replies to a similar post on PPrune (About page 17) of the MH17 thread, disputed several of the facts of that story earlier on today.Is all that can be said at the moment that someone thinks they have found a way of effectively politically isolating Mr Putin from the separatist cause short of an exchange of ICBMs.And this in the year when many in Europe are commemorating WW1.Nick

Not really had a chance to look into it Nick I've only just come across that article. Nether the less I still don't see how People can point the blame a Putin just yet so far it all seems to based on presumptions, I think People need to calm down a little the possible ramifications of such an event especially with everything else that is happening over in the Middle East is very, very serious we need cool heads and a proper in-dependant investigation, not one side blaming the other and vice versa.

I still don't understand why Putin would risk even the remote possibility of implicating himself in a situation that would work massively against his own interests, after all he has been playing his cards very smartly up to now, it just doesn't make sense to me. The fact that America and it's allies are so quick to pun the blame and threaten possible actions tells me we ain't being told the full truth here, they did the same after 9/11 also with the Iraq invasion and with Syria. Let's just wait a little longer we don't need more violence or more bloodshed we need calm heads and rational thinking.

[Clunkclick]

There is little to no evidence suggesting who it is at the minute, both sides have a motive in order to progress their particular Political agenda's.

All we have to go buy at the minute is everyone blaming everyone else with the Public following suit with their Fear induced emotional reactions.

The West is yet again war mongering with their usual aggressive rhetoric, remember not too long ago they were talking in a very similar fashion about the Chemical attacks supposedly carried out by Assad's Syrian Government, we all know their was nothing to back that up. Now we have the same coming from Senator John McClain and some of the others.

Let's just hold back until some actual evidence is put forward for all we know it might not of been either, it's even possible it could of been Mercenary's hired by whomever has a vested interest in a possible outcome.

Slightly off point but interesting nether the less. Have you heard about a meeting that has taken place recently by a group of countries forming an organisation called BRICS?

BRICS is comprised of the Nations Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa who are basically trying to set up an International Bank to rival the IMF and to hopefully put an end to the dominance of the U.S. And there Petro-dollar. We are possibly starting to see a major shift in Geo-political power and strategy.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/15/371463/brics-launches-development-bank/

Blimey, I bet that's bringing on the early onset incontinence in Lehamn's, Goldman's, Citibank, Bear Stearns et al.

In that light, this event and securing Ukraine in Europe, can be viewed as yet another one in the long-chain of actions (Some successful) to carve-up global resources amongst the power blocks.

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Not really had a chance to look into it Nick I've only just come across that article. Nether the less I still don't see how People can point the blame a Putin just yet so far it all seems to based on presumptions, I think People need to calm down a little the possible ramifications of such an event especially with everything else that is happening over in the Middle East is very, very serious we need cool heads and a proper in-dependant investigation, not one side blaming the other and vice versa.

I still don't understand why Putin would risk even the remote possibility of implicating himself in a situation that would work massively against his own interests, after all he has been playing his cards very smartly up to now, it just doesn't make sense to me. The fact that America and it's allies are so quick to pun the blame and threaten possible actions tells me we ain't being told the full truth here, they did the same after 9/11 also with the Iraq invasion and with Syria. Let's just wait a little longer we don't need more violence or more bloodshed we need calm heads and rational thinking.

I would tend to agree. The point has frequently been made over here that a large part of this is posturing for the domestic audience (The carrot) , so as to slow up the succession of many of the republics, perhaps combined with a resigned knowledge and concern that the other side, in the absence of a serious super powers conflict, will keep on coming and salaami-slicing bits off the empire. Has this event given him the political justification to put the brakes (The stick) on all separatist activity in the rest of the Federation ?

Edited 18 July, 2014 by Clunkclick

[hatchy]

Well if it was the Ukranians that shot it down,why are the pro russian **** heads firing shots in the air and preventing the observers from getting too close?

[sparks03]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697010/Faces-innocent-victims-Melbourne-real-estate-agent-wife-student-leading-AIDS-doctors-confirmed-dead-Flight-MH17-terrorist-attack-killed-298-people-board.html

 

 

This is totally, TOTALLY out of order. How dare any side in this dispute use the dead of that aircraft as a means of garnering support for their point of view. What complete disrespect for those unfortunate souls who lost their lives- the American ambassador to the UN should wind his neck in too. If there's nation on this planet with a shaky history of murdering people on passenger jets its the US.

It appears that the dignity of the victims matters far less than political gain and one-upmanship in a game of who can appear more righteous and that important investigation into the facts is dropping down the order.  

[Jabozuma]

Sparks03, looks like you woken up and smelled the coffee - brutal reality of power struggle on a global stage I am affraid....

[vindaloo]

My current belief is that the separatists did it. It was my initial thought based on escalations of airspace interdiction by the separatists. I've seen little to contradict that. Nor would I expect to. Given the state of Eastern Ukraine and the sensitive nature of any information sources.

 

The yanks seem quite certain. By that, I mean, the administration. Not the hot headed, waffling ****s that always come out of the woodwork when there's an opportunity to gain influence.

 

Unfortunately, all of this is overshadowing other issues. Given far right influence in Ukrainian politics, I would like to have seen more being done to curb it. NFC of that happening any time soon now though.

 

Would also say though, that based on what I've seen/read, the nutters with guns on the other side (separatists) are at least as bad as the Ukrainian Nazis.

 

J.

[Clunkclick]

Qui Bono (From of this unfortunate episode) ?

The Russian Military appear to be the sole beneficiary ? Everybody else has got covered with detritus.

All Europe/Asian flights (And the airway ?) have now been moved south (To their Cold War positions). So nobody can see (By virtue of commercial overflight) what's going on in Sebastopol or the supply line feeding it. That's step 3 (Limit the spying) in the plan completed before step 2 (Secure the land corridor from the Russian Federation to Crimea). Step 1, securing the Black Sea Fleet and port is already in the bag.

On a side-issue, do countries that get overflown on these trans-continental routes receive a fee from the airline through ICAO/IATA ?

Nick

[moley]

I read that there is very little or no coverage of the crash in the Russian press.

Every picture tells a story.

[briskycat]

I read that there is very little or no coverage of the crash in the Russian press.

That's not true. Though, the coverage on TV is mostly the usual propaganda.

[seboni121]

The Russian people should friggin wake up and chuck these evil ****s out ! Putin and his Neanderthals need to be shot ! , the Russian separatists are just bloody Russian soldiers ferried in to inflict carnage on the Ukrainians

[vindaloo]

The Russian people should friggin wake up and chuck these evil ****s out ! Putin and his Neanderthals need to be shot ! , the Russian separatists are just bloody Russian soldiers ferried in to inflict carnage on the Ukrainians

 

Not quite true, I feel. There will be a mix. The separatists are certainly managing to obtain aid and supplies from over the border. Whilst there have been repeated assertions that some of them have come in from outside. I doubt there's any official sanction beyond a suggestion to look aside and take the rubles when "yer man" comes calling wanting uniforms, balaclavas (sic) and guns.

 

If you look at the length Moslems have gone to, to travel to Syria, Afghanistan etc. to fight. Surely Russians living in the border region have better reasons (possible family ties) and greater access should they wish to participate.

 

J.

[Clunkclick]

Correspondent from some Russian TV station in Moscow, was questioned by BBC TV 24 yesterday. He said that 500,000 ethnic Russians in the border zone of Ukraine had fled across the border into Russia.

Thing is, those 500,000 Russians were quite happy to stay in Ukraine up to the point when the fighting broke out.

Seems to me that Moscow, is quite prepared to stoke-up the situation as long as its military objectives are (Or have a prospect of) being achieved. IMHO, having clearly lost the ability to rule Ukrain remotely by means of some 1970s re-hashed puppet regime, it would appear, from the actions that they've taken to date, that, at the very least, they are trying to secure their fall-back objective i.e. to re-assert Naval influence (Dominance ?) in the Black Sea, which Russian administrations for time in memoria have regarded as the strategically vulnerable under belly of the country. They can't do this unless they secure Crimea, expel the official Ukrainian presence from Crimea and establish a defendable land bridge from the Russian Federation to Crimea i.e. eastern Ukraine. And they wouldn't see this as being achievable under a federated Ukraine run from Kiev.

The only bit of the Russian aspiration that the Ukranians object to is the occupation of Crimea to the exclusion of their forces.Shouldn't think the Ukranians are too worried at the moment who does what in the Black Sea - that's for the Super powers to contend.

Nick

Edited 20 July, 2014 by Clunkclick

[RainbowFire]

Any proper hard evidence yet? Or still just a truck-load of speculation?

[moley]

Any proper hard evidence yet? Or still just a truck-load of speculation?

No hard evidence yet, just the usual blame game finger pointing and political posturing.

[sparks03]

No hard evidence yet, just the usual blame game finger pointing and political posturing.

 

 

Quite despicable really.