Well I feel gutted too! Some specialists...huh.....Not meaning to sound harsh Pappafox but we all did say get a proper diagnostic done when the car is in limp mode, plus get us those compression figures. I was quite shocked to see you leapt into the head refurb so quickly, and I'm as suspicious as others as to whats been done by the so called specialist and how they've treated you....(cue jokes about mushrooms, kept in the dark, fed sh...)

 

In future all work should be price quoted before the job, and if its expensive, another quote sought. In this case, the skoda dealer would probably have been a better option.

 

As it stands at the moment, the car couldnt be traded in or sold without the fault being obvious, so the car's value is basically close to scrap or breakage value.... which might not be as low as you think....

 

Anyway....whats done is done.....Lets take a few steps back and look at where I personally might go from here (I'm just thinking out loud, so give this a day or two's thought before doing anything...I might change my mind....)

 

 

1. As far as the "specialist" goes - pester them for more information, they surely should have recorded the compression figures. Get a name/telephone/job no of the outfit that did the head refurb. Contact them and ask for a detailed report of the job. What did they do / change and an opinion whether it was because it was needed, or just an instruction from the specialist. Granted you may just be spun a yarn, but I feel a need to ask. Pester the specialist for a free diagnostic/compression test as you trusted their diagnosis to start with, its no better after £800 so some analysis is called for, any engineer would do this without being told....

 

 

 

2. Walk away from the specialist and .....get a DIAGNOSTIC done when its in limp mode using VCDS/VAGCOM or  the offical Skoda Diagnostics machine - if you've got a laptop I think you can pick up a VCDS/VAGCOM cable pretty cheap off ebay, make sure its compatible for your car/year - check elsewhere on the forum. IT MAY NOT BE A MECHANICAL PROBLEM AT ALL!!

 

3. Flush £10, Oil £25, Filter £5 (DIY)

 

4. Get a compression tester £25? No....on second thoughts, if 3 didnt make any difference then an engine rebuild is going to cost at least £900 maybe more. Is the car worth spending that much on? It may be if the rest of the car is pristine......and dont forget all the other jobs that need doing.

 

Can you just poodle around by sticking a red line on the tacho at 3000 rpm - around 60mph in top gear?? It may go on forever, we dont know if the problem is the piston ring.....

 

BTW if the ring was stuck/broken, I would have thought, oil in the chamber/plug or evidence of crankcase pressure build up would be present. Surely black soot just means over rich mixture or part combustion - which might just be ignition related. They should have surely inpected the bore for scoring or damage, and couldnt they see the top ring when at TDC with a bright light? Maybe estateman can comment on this...

 

[edit] Oh another thing, when trying your original pencil coils, take some time to inspect the wiring loom, go back along it, unclip it, and check the connectors not only at the coils but further down the loom, look for wiring chafed or damage, gently tug the wires ate connectors to make sure they are not broken....

 

Sorry for the disjointed ramblings, maybe this can spark off a few ideas...

Edited 13 October, 201411 yr by xman

Pappafox

 

so sorry to learn of the latest situation. It has been evident from an early stage that your repairers are just NOT competent, and have been playing around in the dark.

OK, so your engine allegedly is prone to 'valve problems' - but they should know that at 28000 miles, this was not the answer.

 

In essence, you have presented them with a car with a misfire problem, and paid them to repair this fault. They have charged you £X's for them to play mechanics. They sound to be 'chunkchangers' and do not have a clue where to go next. They have NOT completed their side of the agreement, therefore take it back, and insist that they do the job to your satisfaction OR agree that you take it to a Skoda dealer (at their expense) for correction of this misfire.

 

I feel that you have a case here for some financial redress at the very least.

Good Luck

 

Purgatory

Evening all and thanks so much for your comments.

 

I went for the head refurb with this so called specialists as I know this company has been in business for years dealing with VAG's and thought that 's an endorsement.

 

I did get quotes of 800 to 900 from two other local garages but went specifically for the Leeds people as specialists.

One of these garages employs a mechanic who is a neighbour and he is kindly going to do a compression test ...and put in the original coil packs tomorrow. Didn't manage to do that job tonight.  I will check the connections as suggested with him. (He's seen me with my head under the bonnet and seems very helpful.   

 

Actually, I suppose one option is to ...finally...hurrah .take it to the skoda garage to get a proper diagnosis. For the cost of the test I "should" know the fate of the car

 

The body work is A1 condition an absolute stunner in my humble opinion.  

 

I will chase the chunnkers for more information. Not hopeful, but one never knows.

 

Tired now and I think I muay have missed off some inf...apologise if I remember something else later.

 

Until the next instalment!!!

Hi Pappafox, yes this is disappointing. If I had it in my workshop I'm betting I'd be able to tell you straight away what the problem is. We know the head has now been done so anything else causing low compression has to be piston/ring related. It's difficult to be too critical of the examining techie as we actually don't know what was done during diagnosis. What were the tests carried out and what were the exact results of those tests? We know it was compression tested but don't know the figs, but it was down on certain cylinders we were told. That's valves and/or piston/rings. It's actually not rocket science and there are clear procedures for techs to follow; but it can still be difficult to be exact about some things. That's just a matter of fact I'm afraid. I'm guessing VAGCOM won't show up much except there are big problems with emissions when the engine is loaded. Normal for engines that are down on compression. But yes, it can be other things too. However, full communication with the customer is always a must right from the start to make sure they know all this, and in particular costs involved. I'm guessing procedures were followed but as with everything mechanical and with engine problems of this kind there can be multiple causes and it's easy to miss something. That doesn't mean the tech was incompetent inspite of what some may think. You have to fix the most prevalent fault to be able to check for other things quite often. Me thinks let a Skoda dealer look at it. Another compression check will tell us what we need to know. But run vagcom first. I doubt it's electrical from the information we have. 

 

What you do about the work already done and the cost is up to you. If there is a piston or ring problem then letting the original tech who did the work split the engine may be the way to go especially as he has successfully done this before. But get a full costing first. It's my guess he decided the piston and rings were ok as when he obviously looked into the cylinder affected, there were no tell tale signs of bore scoring. But then, broken or seized piston rings often don't do any damage to the cylinder bores at all so you can't always tell. You cannot see the piston rings with the pistons in situ to be able to make any judgements about their state. Broken or seized compression rings often don't cause oil burn either unless the bore becomes scored. However, it will raise crankcase compression and cause emission problems!  And so thats where the guessology comes in! Do you maybe unnecessarily strip an engine to take a look (at huge cost) or just deal with the obvious things you can see ie: the head valve problem then check for other things? It's not always easy and is a dilemma for techs and customers. 

 

Often a new engine can work out cheaper. But, avoid the cheap engines from certain large engine reconditioners who charge maybe £1500 fitted! Some of these firms are good but some aren't. It can be a risky process. We had many many engines brought to us for evaluation over the years from some of these places and the engines weren't good. Pay a bit more for a factory recon unit if you can. Warranty is better, the engines are in effect completely new and will go for ever (with the right oil changes!). Pappafox, it's a shame you are so far away. I'd gladly pop to see you otherwise, even though I'm retired early now. I'm curious. But good luck and keep posting please. This is proving (sadly) an interesting and informative thread. I do feel for you!

Estate man ,

 

Lunch time update.

 

So the mechanic from the local garage - our neighbour "G" - came to the house an hour ago  in his lunch hour and we have just done the following

 

1. Compression test.  He had the kit etc. All OK 150 units  on each cylinder.  He is  the mechanic who first tested and found the compression down.

Incidentally the people in Leeds hand't done a compression test after the job. I heard the mechanic say to the boss because the cylinder was dirty he hadn't done one.

2. G believes we shouldn't have a piston ring problem as we have good compression now in the cylinders. Seems logical to me?

3. The spark plug on 2 - being sooty was put into no 3  cylinder and vice versa. We  put back in all the original coils. (Note the garage I brought it back from yesterday had put a new BOSCH coil pack in no 2. We had previously put in new coil packs into all cylinders)

4.  Then he looked at the injector rail and at idle took off the injector leads in sequence

      Injector to Cyl 1 disconnected  2 and 3 left on so  drop in engine speed.

       Injector to Cyl 2 disconnected 1 and 3 left on no real change in engine speed i.e the revs sort of stayed the same

      Injector to cyl 3 disconnected 2and 3 on - drop in revs like the first test.

5. G looked at the electrical cabling moved around no  splits evident. Admittedly only a quick look.

6. G suggests we try an injector in cyl  2  and /or take it to the main dealer.

 

I spoke to the garage who did the head again this morning and much of what you say in the start of your reply is what he said to me . Also that the VAGCOM will only tell you there a fault not exactly what is is!

 

Going to see how much the injector is or maybe see if I can get one off a scrapper!!!

 

Comments everyone. !!   den, der , der!

Take it to a dealer first! Get it diagnosed properly stop throwing parts and/or money at it

. No surprise re compression , I have doubts it was ever low

No point getting a used injector I would be tempted to get all three serviced/checked but only AFTER it's been confirmed as the fault

If you hook up a high resolution oscilloscope to the injector you will se if it is working properly or not. Also exhaust analyser and fuel trims will confirm the findings.

I think they took you for a ride with the head job (no pun intended!)

As above a scope would test the injector, and a pulse sensor connected to a scope in the exhaust and then the inlet manifold would give you a good read out of the engine condition.Better information can be seen with an oscilloscope than vcds at times.

Thanks for coming back with the further info Pappa. Based upon what we know, there is no basis for saying you have been taken for a ride. But the job isn't finished yet. Ok, so pistons and rings seem ok. It has to be some other external problem. I'd take a look at the lambda sensor. It may be badly corroded after suffering from the poor valve seat problem. This often happens in this type of situation. It now may not be keeping up with what's happening in the engine especially as the revs and load rise, and this is triggering the eml on the dash. Engine breather hose should be checked too as this may be partially blocked or completely blocked. Again an often overlooked component in cases like this. It will trigger the dash lights if it is. In fact, anything to do with the emission control system is suspect at the mo! Yours is a candidate as the oil has been unchanged for a long time which promotes this kind of thing. New oem injectors are to be had for around the £45 mark. At least that's what I paid last time for one on this engine. It may have gone up a little since. There are other things that will cause the symptoms too but those are the one's I'd check out first before doing much else. 

Assume I know absolutely zero about cars.

I came in with a problem - car loses power at 3.5krpm and engine lights come on.

A mechanic looks at it, does something, measures something, rattles off words I do not understand ("down on compression", "valve guides worn" etc) and says head needs to be reconditioned. I say ermmm, OK, if that neds to be done, you are the specialist.

£800 later and some bits and bobs I did not ask to be done "fixed" I get my car back.

I take it for a drive, no improvement, same $hit happens. 

Blood boils as the barstewards took lots of my money for fixing a problem which is not fixed.

In my book that is fraud!

 

Knowing what we know, it is obvious no diagnostics were performed, completely uneducated guess was made, unnecessary work undertaken for which the client had to pay with no resolution to the problem.

If you do not know how to diagnose a car engine problem simply stick to servicing work and have some decency to send such customer to a specialist.

Otherwise you are committing fraud by pretending you know what you are doing and charging customer for your indolence, simples.

Well some really good news! It looks as if the pistons/head are all good now, we'll never know if the head work was unnecessary (lack of repeatable compression results) but its done now, and should be good for the foreseeable future. Lets give the garage the benefit of the doubt and not dwell on it.

Injector fault sounds much more likely to be responsible for the sooty chamber. You're almost there....

How about this? [Link removed - wrong engine code]

Edited 14 October, 201411 yr by xman

Hi chaps,

 

I was researching and found this link which looks similar to what's going on with my motor perhaps? Hope it doesn't confuse the situation. Look at page 11 and the last two entries especially!!

http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/Topic142928.aspx   

 

 

Whhops here's the link 

Sorry again. The last couple of posts.

 

Xman thanks for the ebay injectors location. In light of these linked posts maybe it could be good money after bad!

 

Jabozuma. Thanks for the support and outrage.  

I'd ignore that bba thread, the guy doesnt understand that when a misfire is detected, e.g. coil/plug then the ecu shuts down the injector on that cylinder to stop unburnt petrol getting to the cat.

Even cheaper and for BME engine (earlier link was for BMD engine)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seat-Ibiza-Vw-Polo-Skoda-Fabia-1-2-Injector-Rail-3-Cylinder-Azq-Bme-/251672807772?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a98de495c

At this price, its not even the cost of a coil. Plenty more on offer on eBay.....cheap

As the car runs OK up to 3.25k, I'd think its reasonable to assume that the electronics and wiring are OK. More likely some contamination in the injector itself, has the fuel filter been changed?

Did this limp mode at 3.25k exist prior to garage messing with the engine? I seem to remember you only posted about misfire issues.

Edited 14 October, 201411 yr by xman

Wow. I have never used ebay!!

 

Yes the limp mode did exist before it went into the garage..and no the fuel filter...hardly surprising has  never been changed

 

 

Sorry to go on about the other website. Did you see the last two entries. Could this be related to my issue. Im not allowed to post the blog text 

sorry xman I missed the first line of your last post!  I'll shut up banging on about this then!!

Wow. I have never used ebay!!

Sorry to go on about the other website. Did you see the last two entries. Could this be related to my issue. Im not allowed to post the blog text

The last two entries about springs and lifters are not related, you have a refurbished head, all those items have been checked/done.

I was jumping the gun a little about the fuel filter, if it had been changed there's a possibility of contamination getting into the fuel system.....

Edited 14 October, 201411 yr by xman

oky doky

For those suggesting a scope to fault find the injector, I don't think that will work. The problem will be contamination or damage that prevents the injector opening or closing correctly, the ecu sends a pulse expecting the injector solenoid to open/close on demand. Its a 2 pin device.

Assume I know absolutely zero about cars.

I came in with a problem - car loses power at 3.5krpm and engine lights come on.

A mechanic looks at it, does something, measures something, rattles off words I do not understand ("down on compression", "valve guides worn" etc) and says head needs to be reconditioned. I say ermmm, OK, if that neds to be done, you are the specialist.

£800 later and some bits and bobs I did not ask to be done "fixed" I get my car back.

I take it for a drive, no improvement, same $hit happens. 

Blood boils as the barstewards took lots of my money for fixing a problem which is not fixed.

In my book that is fraud!

 

Knowing what we know, it is obvious no diagnostics were performed, completely uneducated guess was made, unnecessary work undertaken for which the client had to pay with no resolution to the problem.

If you do not know how to diagnose a car engine problem simply stick to servicing work and have some decency to send such customer to a specialist.

Otherwise you are committing fraud by pretending you know what you are doing and charging customer for your indolence, simples.

 

Jabo, as xman says, don't want to dwell on it, but for the benefit of everyone else, it doesn't quite work like that in modern engines. And of course it's not fraud unless someone is being dishonest. There is no evidence of that based upon what we know. Diagnosis of issues on a car engine by a tech (or a doctor on the human body), is not an exact science. That's just how it is. These professionals may be 95% sure they know what the problem is but in the end, in a small number of cases, it can be multiple issues, or something else entirely. I've lost count of the number of times in the last 30 years as a tech and master tech I've been wrong, even when I've been certain I knew what the issue was on an engine. And my diagnosis would be backed up with good practice, often second opinions of my colleagues, and hi-tech aids as well! Any tech will tell you the same. The more complex the cars the more it happens. But in total, techs get it right most of the time. If they don't they must look after the customer to the best of their ability to mitigate any loss. 

Edited 14 October, 201411 yr by Estate Man

Yes the injector could be firing but not atomising the fuel correctly meaning a poor burn and plug fouling

A scope won't show this but a proper test will

I'm reasonably convinced there have been 2 or more problems with pappafox's engine. These problems have developed and worsened gradually so it didnt become a nuisance until recently.

At least one (head) or two (ignition) problems is now fixed.

1. Mechanically, the engine should be fine, compression is ok and refurbished head means valvegear, camshafts, timing should be ok.

2. Ignition - new coils and plugs, so should be ok

So....

It could be a sensor, but initial diagnostic report didnt show a sensor fault or operating limit reached. However we dont have confirmation by having another scan done now that significant work has been carried out.

So that just leaves the fuelling, there is a clue of black sooty deposits in cylinder 2. And pappafox did a test that indicated that disconnecting injector 2 made little difference in idle running, which may indicate it isnt operating properly, which may also explain the black soot?

Edited 14 October, 201411 yr by xman

Cheers all.

 

I think I will take it to the Skoda dealer for a scan as recommended but am tempted to try the second had injector rail £12 quid

Yes the injector could be firing but not atomising the fuel correctly meaning a poor burn and plug fouling

A

scope won't show this but a proper test will

A test on the ht side of the coil pack with a scope would show up a faulty injector very well