Quaife Atb Limited slip differntial

[neiln]

I asked in the Octy 3 forum but no one seemed interested, I hope here might be.  I'm interested in any thoughts, whether based in experience or research, on the Quaife LSD and fitting to an O3 tsi vrs.  Has any one side it, or considered it?

[neiln]

* tried it... Sorry predictive text fail

[Dark_Hero]

I don't have an octavia, but I got a wavetrac limited slip diff fitted to my Fabia and it is truly fantastic.

Quite possibly the best mod you can do.

Quaife run/ host a racing series, so there products are well proven.

Am I right in thinking the mk3 has an electronic diff as standard?

[neiln]

Octy 3 vrs has xds+ as standard and various other TLA described electronic hedge/ditch avoidance systems. Xds+ I think uses various sensors to detect sporty turning and brakes the inside wheels to help turn the car. It may have edl of some kind too, to use the abs sensors and brakes to simulate a LSD. In practice, in straight line accelerations on anything but dry and clean roads the tsi can spin a wheel in 3rd at 50 ish, and the various stability systems make pry l pretty lights flash on the dash in moderately spirited driving but I've noticed nothing more. I will be honest though, I am not a great driver, maybe I just don't notice the incredible things the car does to keep me on The road, but I don't think I push it hard so....

 

My thinking is, given how it seems the stock 220 PS can easily go beyond the cars ability, I don't see £600 on a Revo stage 1 map to 320 PS any use for much beyond silly wheel spins. The golf 7 gti performance pack gives an LSD, the Leon cupra gets an LSD as standard and neither get 309 PS.  I'm thinking an lsd is the best way to sirens spend £600 on the car if going more swift ly is your aim.

The Quaife atb or another torsen like best gear design is fit and forget, with certain pros and cons vs a clutch LSD or electronic/hydraulic LSD like a haldex

[neiln]

Please excuse the typos. I'm on a bus, going home from the pub, and using a smart phone. Sorry!

[neiln]

BTW, what is the wavetrac LSD? Gears or clutch based? Where do you notice it working? Cornering? Straight line accelerations? Does the fabia have edl too?

[devonutopia]

Thought XDS was a brakes assisted thing as well?  Wavetrac will be like my peloquin - It locks the diff so power goes to both wheels, not one.

[neiln]

Wavetrac, peloquin, Quaife, any other gear for type LSDs?fun googling the different ones is turning up a few reviews, although stuff I've read so far seems to be about their use on awd cars like the golf r. 

 

I'm picking up that gear toys type LSD are good at improved cornering grip, less good at improved straight line grip. Does that sound right?

[Oldfellah]

Hadn't heard, or ever found, an LSD affected straight line grip. What it sometimes does is make the car less nimble on the initial turn-in to a bend. As the LSD begins to engage (depending on its particular settings) the torque begins to shift to the inside driven wheel because it has less grip and this in turn creates a slight resistance to the car turning. ATB type seems generally preferred for road work as the engagement is smoother than clutch type, which can be pretty much on or off. Good for drifting perhaps, but not your average B-road. IMO biggest advantage is in the wet; where there's a puddle on one side which would normally pull a car into that side, one with LSD will usually slice through as if the water isn't there.

[Dark_Hero]

BTW, what is the wavetrac LSD? Gears or clutch based? Where do you notice it working? Cornering? Straight line accelerations? Does the fabia have edl too?

I notice it in the corners. It may help straight line acceleration in the wet, but mainly I got it for extra traction out of corners.

No the mk1 doesn't have EDL.

[neiln]

Hadn't heard, or ever found, an LSD affected straight line grip. 

 

I didn't explain myself very well there, let me try again.  from what I'm coming to understand, gear type LSDs (Torsen, quaife, peloquin) don't lock the axle, they shift torque around, or 'bias it'  the ratio depends on the gears but often around 2  to 1.  meaning oe wheel can get as much as twice the torque of the other.  consequently, the 'zero axle load' situation, such as a wheel on a really low traction surface like ice, or lifted off the surface, and the diff is no better than an open diff, as the bias of zero torque is still zero.  Now I think I read somewhere that in hard straight line acceleration situations, when one wheel starts to spin, it does so quickly and effectively achieves the zero axle load situation (or can).  I read, apparently, drag racers go for clutch type LSDs for this reason.

Hope I've explained that better this time. 

I think I also understand that electronic systems that use the brakes to simulate an LSD can combine well with a gear type LSD and help with that loss of traction in drag style acceleration, as the system brakes the spinning wheel and hence creates some resistance to spin or torque, which even an open diff would then send to the grippy wheel but the gear lsd 'biases' or multiplies it and sends more (which reminds me...in need to look into how xds and the other things actually work)

 

the wavetrac lsd seems slightly different..better, in that it has a mechanism at its core of wave shape cam type things to overcome the zero axle load situation

[devonutopia]

my LSD definitely helps with wheelspin.  I now need the power / loss of traction of two tyres, not just one, to generate actual wheelspin.  This means even with my power, 3rd gear wheelspin is a rarity.

[neiln]

On the pc tonight and my youtube fu is doing the trick, found some great videos

 

here's the thing at the centre of the wavetrac that makes it different

 

 

and this is one of a number of animations of helical gear type lsds showing how they work, this is the eaton trutrac

 

and one of a torsen

[aleksandrz]

Good discussion will monitor the thread. Going with APR stage one next spring and as precursor wanted to change the Diff prior. Octy mark 3 here aswell.

[Yeti_Man]

I've put a quaife into a previous 320bhp fwd hatch and the difference was quite amazing. Off the line grip was improved (although more stress is of course moved further up the drivetrain) and the grip/traction in corners was superb afterwards. It's a little weird at first - you have to relearn how to drive fwd ie NOT back off the throttle when the front just starts to under steer. Push the accelerator harder and it gets the quaife working - pulling you into the corner. Great mod, especially for powerful fwd cars.

[robt100]

you have to relearn how to drive fwd ie NOT back off the throttle when the front just starts to under steer. Push the accelerator harder and it gets the quaife working - pulling you into the corner. Great mod, especially for powerful fwd cars.

I've always known that as the standard way to drive FWD. Power down, weight shifted more rearwards, more balance, more turning ability!

[vee8essie]

I.V just had a quaife + avr6 clutch and lightened fly wheel best mod you can do good fun just a question of choice

[Yeti_Man]

I've always known that as the standard way to drive FWD. Power down, weight shifted more rearwards, more balance, more turning ability!

Weight shifting rearwards means a lighter front and therefore less weight over the driven wheels/less grip/under steer. Not all fwd chassis's allow certain techniques. My example was a Focus. Very capable and neutral as standard. At the point of under steer on the road, most people rightly back off (its engineered to be safe and easy to bring back inline). With the quaife installed, at that point, you have to increase the acceleration, let the torque move to thin side wheel and allow it to drag you back inline.

[neiln]

http://www.vxronline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?102214-Quaife-v-wavetrac

 

if you ignore the usual forum 'banter' i think this is an interesting discussion

 

there are lots of other quaife vs wavetrac vs peloquin threads out there.  I'm coming to understand, from the consensus of what I've read (nothing more) a few things.

1. If you are on the track, the very best LSD is probably a clutch type, but these can be a pain on the road, need servicing and cost the most

2. of the 3 makes of torsen type easily available, quaife are british, peloquin is a US one man band, wavetrac is US.

3.  All 3 are pretty good compared to an open diff.

4. over here, wavetrac looks to be about £750 plus VAT, plus fitting, the other 2 are about £650 plus vat plus fitting.

5. wavetrac is possibly better performing of the 3, because of the preload that overcomes the zero axle load condition.

6. Not found evidence of wavetracs having issues, but a few questions of it, think its newer than the others?  the preload device is basically a clutch so will it wear?  probably but probably not for a long while i suspect

7. peloquin might be better made, better materials than the quaife, and is currently well supported.  however bear in mind, he is a one man band.

8. Fitting yourself is possible...if you are used to pulling gearboxes off cars, stripping them down, drilling out the rivets holding the pinion wheel to the diff, tapping holes, the odd bit of welding, rebuiling.....probably best left to a pro by most of us.  (I did find a good 'how to' thread with oodles of photos somewhere, if you want to have a go).  not sure how much fitting would be, although from costs I have seen people give for 'supply and fit cost me £XX I think £1200 ish  after VAT for the lot.

Edited 9 November, 2014 by neiln

[snow_muncher]

1. If you are on the track, the very best LSD is probably a clutch type, but these can be a pain on the road, need servicing and cost the most

Mechanical clutchpacks are very rare (for stock fitment)

mechanical clutchpacks have been largely replaced by active clutchpack diffs, such as Haldex Corp/Prodrive/Mitsubishi make

Many folks opt for plate diffs - do much the same job as a clutchpack, but without the complexity - but also without the tuneability

2. of the 3 makes of torsen type easily available, quaife are british, peloquin is a US one man band, wavetrac is US.

Wavetrac is a one-man band too

Gary Peloquin has more experience of building torsens for VW drivetrains than all the other combined - something like 50 odd years

Quaife and Wavetrac are generic diffs cased-up to fit any given drivetrain - Peloquins are designed for VAG

Quaife are a somewhat faceless corporation - with quite bad rep for poorly finished gear teeth

3.  All 3 are pretty good compared to an open diff.

No - all 3 are a VAST improvement on an open diff

4. over here, wavetrac looks to be about £750 plus VAT, plus fitting, the other 2 are about £650 plus vat plus fitting.

5. wavetrac is possibly better performing of the 3, because of the preload that overcomes the zero axle load condition.

6. Not found evidence of wavetracs having issues, but a few questions of it, think its newer than the others?  the preload device is basically a clutch so will it wear?  probably but probably not for a long while i suspect

The cam at the center of the wavetrac is snakeoil

The chap who makes them admitted this himself when he mentioned the cam doesn't wear because it doesn't actually cam up

But not to worry - its still a good Torsen diff

7. peloquin might be better made, better materials than the quaife, and is currently well supported.  however bear in mind, he is a one man band.

As mention so is wavetrac

Gary Peloquin is a very helpful chap

Pretty much the go-to guy when it comes to any VAG related drivetrain questions

8. Fitting yourself is possible...if you are used to pulling gearboxes off cars, stripping them down, drilling out the rivets holding the pinion wheel to the diff, tapping holes, the odd bit of welding, rebuiling.....probably best left to a pro by most of us.  (I did find a good 'how to' thread with oodles of photos somewhere, if you want to have a go).  not sure how much fitting would be, although from costs I have seen people give for 'supply and fit cost me £XX I think £1200 ish  after VAT for the lot.

[neiln]

you seem very informed, thanks indeed!

[group1rs]

I have a Wavetrac. It's been faultless since fitment 18 months ago and has transformed the car. Although I don't really do any miles. Mine is a track day and show toy. I too did all the forum and Internet research and choose Wavetrac based on the lifetime warranty.

[Mustafa]

Hi, has anyone fitted LSD into Octy 3? I do have Wavetrac here, but my question is, it is not confirmed, that the diff from Octy 2 (G5/6GTI) fits into the mqb gearbox. Is that diff the same and does it fit?