I am at the moment negotiating the purchase of a slightly second hand Yeti.

Now at this point I have to admit to being a tad naive . The nice young lady gave me a nice price for my Yeti and this was against a pre reg model about 3 weeks old with a nice discount. So far so good.

Then as things progressed it was mentioned that there would need to be a bit of retention of the v5 registration doc, for 3 months to be precise.

I thought that was a bit weird and so I did a bit of research, which showed this was at best a "grey" area and could have implications re breaking the law, to difficulties with insurance etc .I moaned on to the dealer as I admit to being very conservative in this area and they relented and said I can now have the log book sorted out at the time of handover.

.

But now I feel a bit bad, thinking, " Why couldn't I have been nicer to the salesperson--they were only thinking of their targets I suppose"

I appreciate this is pretty common now I have looked into it --so was I right to be so concerned or was I being a bit of a woose

Discuss!

 

No retention is not acceptable.

A seller keeping the V5 is "dodgy" although some of the "cheap" sellers do this.

I seem to think that cars assigned to dealers as demo's etc. had to be kept by the dealer for a certain time, perhaps they sold it too quickly, and were going to put the paperwork through in 3 Mths to cover themselves. Maybe I'm talking rubbish though.

I seem to think that cars assigned to dealers as demo's etc. had to be kept by the dealer for a certain time, perhaps they sold it too quickly, and were going to put the paperwork through in 3 Mths to cover themselves. Maybe I'm talking rubbish though.

Yes it cod be something to do with this. When we bought ours i seem to recall it wasn't advertised on the Skoda website as they had some rule meaning they weren't allowed to advertise cars under three months old through e 'official' channels. I had therefore spotted it on another sale site rather than e Skoda or dealer website, even though it was apparently a dealer staff car...

A seller keeping the V5 is "dodgy" although some of the "cheap" sellers do this.

Main Skoda dealership!

I seem to think that cars assigned to dealers as demo's etc. had to be kept by the dealer for a certain time, perhaps they sold it too quickly, and were going to put the paperwork through in 3 Mths to cover themselves. Maybe I'm talking rubbish though.

Think you might be right

I suspect that it is because they get a better discount on their own Demonstrators - but have to own them for a minimum time before selling on.

When I bought my ex demo Tiguan a few months ago the sales guy told me they have to keep them for a minimum of 90 days so the retention of the V5 is probably to do with this obligation. If they were to sell within this time then my guess is that it opens them up to losing their dealer discount.

The whole thing about them retaining the V5, although a little disengenious, isn't a big deal. You are still the owner of the vehicle, the V5 is not proof of ownership.

The whole thing about them retaining the V5, although a little disengenious, isn't a big deal. You are still the owner of the vehicle, the V5 is not proof of ownership.

It's nothing  to do with proof of ownership. Your insurance will stipulate that you are the registered keeper. So insurance may be invalidated.

I have had a quick search on the internet to see what others have had to say about this situation.  Insurance could be a problem in the absence of  a V5 showing that you are the registered keeper.  You wouldn't be in a position to produce all your car documents within 7 days if required to by the police.  You wouldn't be able to sell the car.  You could have problems with parking schemes where it is necessary to produce the V5 to show that the car is yours.  And you wouldn't have all the documents you should take with you if travelling overseas.

 

My Fabia vRS was a year old when I bought it and the first keeper was shown as Skoda UK at Milton Keynes.  I guess that that is where you car's V5 is and that it will not be released by Skoda UK until 3 months are up because it has been 'lent' to the dealer for that period.  I wouldn't buy it without the V5.

The whole thing about them retaining the V5, although a little disengenious, isn't a big deal. You are still the owner of the vehicle, the V5 is not proof of ownership.

No it isn't, but it is a legal requirement to show the current keeper, and may cause you problems with your insurance.

I have had a quick search on the internet to see what others have had to say about this situation.  Insurance could be a problem in the absence of  a V5 showing that you are the registered keeper.  You wouldn't be in a position to produce all your car documents within 7 days if required to by the police.  You wouldn't be able to sell the car.  You could have problems with parking schemes where it is necessary to produce the V5 to show that the car is yours.  And you wouldn't have all the documents you should take with you if travelling overseas.

 

My Fabia vRS was a year old when I bought it and the first keeper was shown as Skoda UK at Milton Keynes.  I guess that that is where you car's V5 is and that it will not be released by Skoda UK until 3 months are up because it has been 'lent' to the dealer for that period.  I wouldn't buy it without the V5.

No the dealership has the doc-I think as others have said the car was probably supplied via SUK as a demo at a discount with the proviso that it is not sold for 3 months.

I am getting the V5 at point of sale now after I pointed out the issues as I saw them.

I thought it would be interesting to raise  what had happened to me, to point out the possible pitfalls in this scenario. FWIIW in my opinion, the dealer should just have stored the car for 3 months- then advertised it for sale- no problem then.

A lot of companies are doing this now to drum up sales including prestige marques like Mercedes and others. The problem is for resale values, possibly, if there is a lot of discounting. It would be easy for me to get a car at the same price, or less--there are plenty of internet sellers --you have to wonder where they source their cars from though.

On that note you have to sympathise with the main dealers who have to compete in that marketplace, but have all the overheads concomitant with that type of business.

It will do nothing for our ownership experience if the network of main dealerships is eroded by these pressures in the long run.

It has opened a little window into some of the stuff that goes on.

I am glad I don't have to sell cars for a living!

Edited 20 December, 201411 yr by yetiscot

A good result for you.

It's nothing  to do with proof of ownership. Your insurance will stipulate that you are the registered keeper. So insurance may be invalidated.

 

That isn't strictly true, you can insure ANY car without being the registered keeper. For example, if you rent a car you can insure it yourself. I am the registered keeper of my partner's Jeep Patriot and she insures it and the insurance company do not give a crap. If you tell the insurance company it is fine, where problems begin is if you don't tell them

 

Just to add to this. I just called Direct Line and they are aware of this practice by dealers and say, as long as they are made aware, it is not a problem. If the insurance companies are aware then DVLA will be aware and I would bet that there is a procedure that satisfies the legal requirements

Edited 21 December, 201411 yr by milspectees

The DVLA/police would not be happy with the arrangement as there is a lack of traceability and therefore there is an offence committed by the user of the vehicle and the vendor

There was a court case about 18 months ago in which a car broker was fined for the practise[ i.e V5 retention] and a shot across the bows from the judge warning of higher penalties in the future.

A bit of a search on tinternet brings it up--there is a verbatim account on the judgement on the HJ site

Edited 21 December, 201411 yr by yetiscot

A good result for you.

To be honest the car wasn't that hard to find.

You can get nearly as good a deal by selling to WBAC then buying through one of the on-line dealers

It's not a pre reg as such where a dealer buys a quantity of vehicles from the manufacturer at a substantial discount and then registers them so that they can be sold.  It sounds as though it's been registered as a demo or courtesy car so that they can be seen to keeping up with the manufacturers operating conditions and will receive a rebate from the manufacturer if they kept the vehicle for a minimum period.

 

The dealer is trying to get it both ways, the manufacturers rebate and the sale revenue in a short time period.  There was a fuss some years ago about manufacturers manipulating the sales figures by registering cars, since then things have tightened up and the three month rule is the result.

It's nothing  to do with proof of ownership. Your insurance will stipulate that you are the registered keeper. So insurance may be invalidated.

  

I have had a quick search on the internet to see what others have had to say about this situation.  Insurance could be a problem in the absence of  a V5 showing that you are the registered keeper.  You wouldn't be in a position to produce all your car documents within 7 days if required to by the police.  You wouldn't be able to sell the car.  You could have problems with parking schemes where it is necessary to produce the V5 to show that the car is yours.  And you wouldn't have all the documents you should take with you if travelling overseas.

 

My Fabia vRS was a year old when I bought it and the first keeper was shown as Skoda UK at Milton Keynes.  I guess that that is where you car's V5 is and that it will not be released by Skoda UK until 3 months are up because it has been 'lent' to the dealer for that period.  I wouldn't buy it without the V5.

  

The DVLA/police would not be happy with the arrangement as there is a lack of traceability and therefore there is an offence committed by the user of the vehicle and the vendor

There was a court case about 18 months ago in which a car broker was fined for the practise[ i.e V5 retention] and a shot across the bows from the judge warning of higher penalties in the future.

A bit of a search on tinternet brings it up--there is a verbatim account on the judgement on the HJ site

There's no issues insuring a car that isn't registered to you, nor is there an issue with the police, a PNC would show the dealer as the registered keeper and they would then point them in your direction. There's no legal requirement for the current user or owner to be the registered keeper. The only issue you would perhaps have is getting the car taxed. I've had cars registered to other people or even in my name but at other addresses all above board and with no issues. If the op isn't comfortable with it then fair enough, you did right by demanding it be registered to you however I would have no issue with the dealership being the owner for three months.

The DVLA say you have to register a vehicle as soon as you've bought it https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration , and https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

The DVLA say you have to register a vehicle as soon as you've bought it https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration , and https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

The key thing to note is, you'll usually have to register the vehicle as soon as you've bought it. There's no legal requirement to. As a ex cop you'll understand that?

The key thing to note is, you'll usually have to register the vehicle as soon as you've bought it. There's no legal requirement to. As a ex cop you'll understand that?

 

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.

Looking at the letter of the law, these two sections seem relevant.

 

From http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regulation/18/made

we have a requirement to update your V5 for a car you own

 

Notification of a change of the keeper’s name or address

18.  (1)  If the registered keeper of a vehicle changes his name or his address, he shall forthwith notify the new name or address to the Secretary of State and, except where the registration document has been lost, stolen or destroyed, shall deliver the registration document to him.

 

And from http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regulation/22/made

 

Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader

22.  (1)  This regulation applies where—

(a)there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;

(b)a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and

©the new keeper is not a vehicle trader.

(2) The registered keeper of the vehicle—

(a)if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and

(b)shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following—

(i)the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii)the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;

(iii)a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv)a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.

 

There's also http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regulation/24/made which gives the trader a legal obligation to notify

 

Change of keeper: obligations of vehicle traders where registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24 March 1997

(5) Where the vehicle trader transfers the vehicle to another person in a case not falling within paragraph (4), he shall—

(a)forthwith deliver to the Secretary of State, on that part of the registration document which relates to the change of keeper or otherwise in writing, the following—

(i)the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii)the date on which the vehicle was transferred to the new keeper;

(iii)a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv)a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct; and

(b)if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, deliver to the new keeper those parts of it not required to be sent to the Secretary of State under sub-paragraph (a).

 

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.

Looking at the letter of the law, these two sections seem relevant.

 

From http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regulation/18/made

we have a requirement to update your V5 for a car you own

 

 

Well that's flawed right from the start, the V5 clearly states that it's not proof of ownership and that the keepers details are shown on it.

Well that's flawed right from the start, the V5 clearly states that it's not proof of ownership and that the keepers details are shown on it.

That's a grammatical mistake on my part. I should have said that the current keeper has the requirement, etc, as it reads in the legislation that I'd quoted.

Edited 22 December, 201411 yr by Dr Zoidberg