Why scrap the human rights act?

[KenONeill]

I doubt it's as many as I've seen quoted by some campaigners

So how many vulnerable people committing suicide because they have no income does it take to be "too many" then? Your quoted post suggests that you have a non-zero number in mind.

[Aspman]

It'll be enough to be embarrassing or they'd have put the figures out straight away.

 

But these will be 'statistics' so cause of death etc will all be open to interpretation and it will not be clear whether the removal of benefits have lead directly to a death.

 

Correlation does not imply causation

 

However the press will have a field day with it whatever.

[gadgetman]

So how many vulnerable people committing suicide because they have no income does it take to be "too many" then? Your quoted post suggests that you have a non-zero number in mind.

I've seen quotes from campaigners from 16,000 to 200,000 (seriously?) deaths as a direct result of gov benefit withdrawal.

I'd be very surprised if numbers were anywhere near 10,000 myself. 5,000 (whilst still a high number) I think will be closer to the real figure.

[KenONeill]

I've seen quotes from campaigners from 16,000 to 200,000 (seriously?) deaths as a direct result of gov benefit withdrawal.

I'd be very surprised if numbers were anywhere near 10,000 myself. 5,000 (whilst still a high number) I think will be closer to the real figure.

In which case, I'd be inclined to agree your estimate, but still think that the number is just plain "too many".

[VWD]

I hope they failed miserably, as the majority's right to family life should outweigh a single right to family life

Or maybe their barrister was better than your barrister

Let's put in the correct perspective- Barrister for LA argued that the majority had the right to a peaceful life ,free from harassment and thuggish behaviour -that was their human rights against the rights of the one family to ignore the rights of the majority. Family causing problems ended up with an eviction order suspended for a year ,subject to good behaviour.

[Clunkclick]

The removal wouldn't just affect benefits, immigration etc but also most of the laws in the workplace protecting employees.....

A necessary precursor (For the controlling financial interests in the UK) for the UK as a signatory to   the Transatlantic Trade and Investment  Partnership . . . . given the economic focus in Europe has moved to central and eastern Europe ?

 

Nick

Edited 21 June, 2015 by Clunkclick

[gadgetman]

Seems my 5000 maximum hunch was right.

Real number 2300 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34074557

[Ootohere]

Actually the figures there on 'people declared fit for work after an assessment' ie Having ESA Stopped, and maybe Housing Benefit, and then dying soon after does not include numbers of those that have benefits denied for other reasons, sanctioned and the likes, left with no income & destitute without any notice.  

There are many dying from natural causes or suicide soon after they fall into that total ,poverty trap after having benefits stopped,

Those that were possibly not Disabled or deemed not disabled so not claiming ESA and are not going to be having had a Fit for Work Assessment, just Job Seekers & other Benefit or Allowance claimants left without money.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-33862498

http://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/vulnerable-easy-targets-job-centre-6320363

[gadgetman]

But another report a few weeks ago put suicides up anyway.

[Ootohere]

'Up anyway'.  

? What do you mean, up because of this, or 'Up' so thats OK, it is only people killing themselves?

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33613909

 

That is what you get with a Right Wing Conservative Government then and austerity, and the carrot and stick and treat them mean and keep them keen. Let them eat cake from the Food Banks, they are just dross.

 

So more deaths from suicide will be just fine with many in Government in the UK because obviously one of the wealthiest countries in the world has no space for those that are not high earners and tax dodgers.

'Time that the government opens a debate on assisted suicide.'

[gadgetman]

Woah there George. When have I said it's OK?

The link between being on benefits, having them cut and suicide isn't a given. There's a good chance of so many other variables which may account for any number of those 2300.

Death of a family member, partner leaving/relationship breakdown, health issues (ie cancer diagnosis) etc etc.

But regardless it's no where near the sensationalist numbers being banded about 6 months ago, and a link between the 2 hasn't been established 100% for every case.

I accept some cases will be directly linked, but it could end up this figure is even smaller than the 2300. We could be talking a few hundred in reality.

Is that any better? Not really no, but as with any suicide it shows how lacking in mental health care we are to spot and help those in need without folk needing to ask for it.

[silver1011]

Its not being scrapped and not being replaced. Currently if a foreign person who is a murderer lets say managed to get into this country (though the border checks should stop him) he comes over here and has a kid and murders someone here, we cannot deport him because of human rights. Furthermore if he says he is ill because he hears voices, we cannot even inprison him, because of human rights. If we say sod his human rights and imprison him the european court can step in tell us to let him out and make us pay him compensation because we breached his human rights, but oh no he cant be moved to another country in europe because he is a criminal. We are stuck with him.

 

If we scrap the human rights (which America doesnt have) and put new laws in place, we can send him back to his own country for them to deal with.

 

To be honest, human rights probaby goes further to protect foreigners inthis country than our own nationals.

 

I think the biggest example case is Hook Handed Muslim Hate Preacher Abu Hamza, he made it into this country and was practically standing out in the streets saying lets kill the queen and we couldnt do anything about it. In other countries he would have been marched to a white wall and blindfolded!

 

Scrap the Human Rights Act NOW!!!!!!!!!

 

^ This.

[cheezemonkhai]

One of the wealthiest?!?

We're pretty much bankrupt and have been living beyond our means for decades.

[Ootohere]

Exactly.

 Hosting the wealthiest spending others money.

Pyramid Selling & Banking / Financial Services / Banking and Money Laundering for those stealing from the people in other countries.

Living beyond the means of this country.  

Fur coat and no knickers.

[cheezemonkhai]

Exactly.

 Hosting the wealthiest spending others money.

Pyramid Selling & Banking / Financial Services / Banking and Money Laundering for those stealing from the people in other countries.

Living beyond the means of this country.  

Fur coat and no knickers.

 

 

 

Some people will pay good money for that...

[KenONeill]

Speaking of the HRA etc, has anyone else seen the press coverage about "the Government" being investigated by the UN over human rights abuses in cutting benefits for the disabled?

[cheezemonkhai]

Speaking of the HRA etc, has anyone else seen the press coverage about "the Government" being investigated by the UN over human rights abuses in cutting benefits for the disabled?

 

Seriously?

Does every other country in the world give them out? No.

 

I don't agree in leaving people high and dry, but we basically have a choice between bankrupting the system and shutting it down, or triming things, rearranging it and making sure it's still there to help those who really need it.

 

Yes you're going to end up with some false results where people are told they don't need it when they really do.

Part of the problem however was the tactic of moving people from unemployment to disability, when really they could have taken a job.

 

It's going to be a painful process and it's going to take years to get the tests right, but if we carry on as we are now, then we'll end up giving people nothing as the system will fall over.

 

Those in real need should be well looked after, the problem is those who are not really in need seem to be creating a lot of anger, even amoung the poorer working people, who are paying for them.

Politically and morally, that can't stand as the system was supposed to be a safety net.

 

I do think NI being ringfenced again and used to make an investment fund for health and for pensions would be no bad thing, but then I don't know the full details of the system, so can't give any full answers based on what I hear, which may not be accurate in itself.

[Ootohere]

You will know that the Unemployed were moved to Invalidity, then later Incapacity, later then changed to Disability.

It became 'Employment Support', it became checked annually, except those deemed never to need checked even though the rules said they would be every 3 years.   Nothing ever gets introduced and then properly administered before 

being changed again, Pilot Schemes, Roll it out, and before it is up and running, change it again.

 

There are many countries in the world that can identify Disability, Incapacity or Invalidity.

http://oecd.org/social/soc/41429917.pdf

 

Before making comments on ATOS and like assessments you should maybe attend one and experience who that Medical is carried out, and how the system works.

It is a scandal, and not fit for purpose and the Appeal Scheme is even worse.

 

as to taking years to sort things out with Tests and different systems.

I know the systems and tests inside out back over 3 decades, and have been involved it many Pilot schemes leading up to their introductions.

Family Income Support Invalidity Components, Disabled Working Tax Credits, and what can after and name changes, 

and more cuts, and less help and always jumping through hoops for Disabled People, Disabled for life, 

unlike those with the Inability to work because they do not want to.

Employment Exchange, Unemployment Exchange, Social Security, DHSS, HMRC, Job Centre, Job Centre Plus. 

Its more money spent on System changes and payment schemes and chopping and changing Staff , Contract and Service Providers than gets spent on the Benefits or Allowances, or money to those that need assistance.

[cheezemonkhai]

If I am correct ATOS got the boot and another company is doing the work now.

 

As I also said I don't know everything, but generally getting something agreed, then refining it works much better than all change every 5 years.

Edited 1 September, 2015 by cheezemonkhai

[Ootohere]

They were allowed to walk away from the mess they made of it.

Will Maximus be any better?

http://chdauk.co.uk

 

The last Con-Dem government had 5 years, and Ian Duncan Smith can not organise a pith up in a brewery and the

UK Government get burnt time after time with useless IT bought from Tony Blair's cronies.

Executive Agency after Executive Agency paying for Systems that are outdated before they ever get near launch, 

then still fail to work.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25884915

 

So if they ever get Universal Credit rolled out nation wide it will be a miracle.

All the while IDS just is the man that can not see that he is set up to fail by the top man, George Osborne.

 

We will see just how it goes in Reading this month and next.

http://beta.reading.gov.uk/UniversalCreditReading

[cheezemonkhai]

Personally I think they're all gits, but you know some individuals more than others.